Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Underwood 180gr Speer TMJ
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1300 fps
Muzzle Energy: 675 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: Star-Line - Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.6015"/Dia. 0.4000": 180gr. Speer TMJ
Actual weigh 179.2 grains Crimp Diameter 0.3985" meplat 0.2475"
C.O.A.L.: 1.2445"
Primer: Nickel color
Case: Diameter 0.4220" Crimp Diameter 0.4215" Length 0.9880"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: Power Pistol 9.8 grains
Tested in 10mm S&W1006 5" 1312 fps (failed to extract) / 1025 fps ? June 8, 2013
Cases expanded to 0.4275" / 0.4280", primers moderately flattened, small bit of leakage, cases show some stress but no smiles.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/bx0h2ez71/IMG_0850_zps62a82b15.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/g6574la65/IMG_0851_zpsc823aad8.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/hl6rtbiz1/IMG_0853_zps53192194.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/qsz0a0xr1/IMG_0854_zps2cc60c24.jpg)
Interesting. I wonder what these will chrono? Do you think he ran out of 800x or is switching powders due to the difficulty in consistently metering 800x?
These were roughly a tad under 1300 FPS and why I labeled them like that :D So the powder has changed too and slightly under the Buffalo Bore charge which gave more on the Chronograph at 10.0gr's Power Pistol. :-X
I changed the sheet to reflect what you got in the pull-down. Who knows if Kevin will go back to 800-X but I kind of doubt it.
Did you list these as a different listing for previous data? Yes they should be close to 1300 fps.
Buffalo Bore's 10.0 grains Power Pistol was listed at 1350 fps.
No, just updated the Underwood TMJ. I figure Kevin will never go back at this point now.
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 30 2013 07:40:05 PM MDT
Did you list these as a different listing for previous data? Yes they should be close to 1300 fps.
Buffalo Bore's 10.0 grains Power Pistol was listed at 1350 fps.
The BB load does right around 1325 FPS from the G20 4.6".
It's still settling in with me that Kevin seems to be done with IMR 800-X.
I'm so glad we did all the pull downs of his original work.
I'll be curious to see how these actually chrono.
The BB load with what I believe is a winchester bullet chronos about 1295 out of my G20 with stock bbl and 22# spring.
These have been done several times an added in the sheet. They are a pinch under 1300 FPS now.
For those of you that reload, how do you like Power Pistol? Does it meter well? Finicky with temperatures?
The_Shadow, thanks for this. Great info. Did you pull down more than 1 round & if so was the powder charge very consistent?
It meters very consistently through my pro auto disk. I'm not too sure about the temperature sensitivity. It is one of "the" powders for high performance 9mm but it hasn't been on my radar for high performance 10mm until now...
Is Underwood done with 800x or is he having a hard time getting mass quantities of it so he switched to what he could get for now?
RMM, thank you. Sounds perfect for me as once components become more available, I want to start reloading 9 & 10mm. I've been doing it for 44mag but using Unique & H110.
Quote from: Grim Reaper on May 31 2013 11:47:48 AM MDT
Is Underwood done with 800x or is he having a hard time getting mass quantities of it so he switched to what he could get for now?
It seems like 800x has become available faster than a lot of the other popular powders but of course I don't know anything about mass quantities.
This is just my speculation, but I'll bet that he is switching for good. If I were a mass producer of ammo I wouldn't want the headache involved with 800x (extremely hard metering). Somehow he has 800x metering fairly well from an automated measure, but as we've all seen there have been a few rounds (more than is acceptable) that have been outside of the safe zone (which is very small when running at this level).
By switching to a powder that meters more consistently but still provides similar performance Kevin will be able to produce more ammo with less potential liability.
Quote from: DAVIDF on May 31 2013 11:53:21 AM MDT
RMM, thank you. Sounds perfect for me as once components become more available, I want to start reloading 9 & 10mm. I've been doing it for 44mag but using Unique & H110.
PP is fantastic for 9mm, and H110(W296) is the same for .44M, but ne'er the twain shall meet. PP is great for 10mm "lite" (.40SW-ish), but falls well short of full power. It's MUCH too fast. Great for target/plinkers, if that's what you're after.
Quote from: DM1906 on May 31 2013 01:31:44 PM MDT
Quote from: DAVIDF on May 31 2013 11:53:21 AM MDT
RMM, thank you. Sounds perfect for me as once components become more available, I want to start reloading 9 & 10mm. I've been doing it for 44mag but using Unique & H110.
PP is fantastic for 9mm, and H110(W296) is the same for .44M, but ne'er the twain shall meet. PP is great for 10mm "lite" (.40SW-ish), but falls well short of full power. It's MUCH too fast. Great for target/plinkers, if that's what you're after.
This is what I thought, but it is interesting to see both Buffalo Bore and now Underwood using this powder to push 180 gr. up to 1300 fps. Alliant doesn't even list this powder for 180 gr. 10mm (not that their load data is very complete). Longshot has produced good velocities so far but I haven't even worked up to book max yet.
Look at the sheets and many others are also using it!
Handloads.com lists this:
Bullet Powder Weight Powder Velocity OAL Primer Source
JHP 8.7 gr Power Pistol 1,240 fps 1.25" Fed 150 Alliant
Suggested starting load: 7.8 gr
Pressure: 34,900
In my mind Power Pistol is an honorable mention for 10mm, but not useful far max velocity loads at reasonable pressure.
I wouldn't consider it's usefulness in 10mm limited to 10mm Lite though, more like 10mm Medium to Medium-High. Sort of like good for the factory Winchester Silvertip load performance level.
Quote from: REDLINE on June 01 2013 05:54:59 PM MDT
In my mind Power Pistol is an honorable mention for 10mm, but not useful far max velocity loads at reasonable pressure.
I wouldn't consider it's usefulness in 10mm limited to 10mm Lite though, more like 10mm Medium to Medium-High. Sort of like good for the factory Winchester Silvertip load performance level.
That IS 10mm Lite. Meaning, around factory offerings, as opposed to original factory original. I wouldn't use it to drive a 200 gr. bullet to 1200 FPS. Anything less is, "Lite". This is my interpretation, and opinion, of course.
I guess it's just semantics then. It's gotta be a "FBI Lite" equivalent before I call them Lite. An example in my mind is that grossly over priced Federal load shown below (180gr rated at 1030 FPS) -
(http://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/8/180gr_hydra.jpg)
That is well below Winchester SilverTip territory.
Keep in mind that in close quarter battle there are risks of pass thru of the projectiles. Therefore rounds were limited to lower velocities with huge HP designs to limit their depth of penetration, opening up fast and slowing quickly to dump the total energy in the intended target. Law Enforcement having a duty to act may place many people in tight quarters to bring a situation under control. Therefore they can't risk a penetration where another person might be struck. However they are more likely to miss the intended target under the stress of the situation :-\...
We are power junkies here and less likely to have an encounter as such. More apt to experience a more open encounter with less people in the immediate area...So we opt for a faster heavy hitter. ;D
But our main concern needs to be about proper functioning ammo without stoppages while maintaining performance levels. :P
Redline:
That ammo you posted is the most overpriced ammo of them all. Low power and high price. If you shoot that get a 9mm not a 10mm you do not need it.
Quote from: RRMan03 on June 01 2013 11:47:18 PM MDT
Redline:
That ammo you posted is the most overpriced ammo of them all. Low power and high price. If you shoot that get a 9mm not a 10mm you do not need it.
I agree completely! 8)
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 01 2013 07:24:02 PM MDTKeep in mind that in close quarter battle there are risks of pass thru of the projectiles. Therefore rounds were limited to lower velocities with huge HP designs to limit their depth of penetration, opening up fast and slowing quickly to dump the total energy in the intended target.
A lighter weight bullet will fix that issue while keeping energy levels top notch and not lowering energy levels to non +P 9mm levels.
Quote from: RRMan03 on June 01 2013 11:47:18 PM MDT
Redline:
That ammo you posted is the most overpriced ammo of them all. Low power and high price. If you shoot that get a 9mm not a 10mm you do not need it.
Worse than American Eagle? That was the first ammo I had bought. $39 per 50.
I had 40S&W handload hotter.
Quote from: Rick1987 on June 03 2013 04:56:32 AM MDT
Quote from: RRMan03 on June 01 2013 11:47:18 PM MDT
Redline:
That ammo you posted is the most overpriced ammo of them all. Low power and high price. If you shoot that get a 9mm not a 10mm you do not need it.
Worse than American Eagle? That was the first ammo I had bought. $39 per 50.
I had 40S&W handload hotter.
Much worse. Hydra-shocks are $30 for 20. Any they are just about the weakest 10mm round you can buy.
Power pistol is indicated a good performer in very light bullets for 10mm. I think it was near the top of the list in my Lee manual for 135 grain bullets.
However, I think better performance even in the light bullets mandates a slower powder.
When I loaded for 10mm, a 180gr JHP would do 1205 fps from a Glock 20 using 8.5gr Power Pistol. 9.8gr is "only" ~13% over book max of 8.7gr. Hmmmmmmm. I see Buffalo Bore is using even more 10.0gr, 15% over book. I wonder if people new how much over book these are if they would think twice?
Quote from: 45BBH on June 04 2013 09:06:08 AM MDT
When I loaded for 10mm, a 180gr JHP would do 1205 fps from a Glock 20 using 8.5gr Power Pistol. 9.8gr is "only" ~13% over book max of 8.7gr. Hmmmmmmm. I see Buffalo Bore is using even more 10.0gr, 15% over book. I wonder if people new how much over book these are if they would think twice?
Reloading books are routinely far below SAAMI max pressure for liability purposes. I don't have my info in front of me at work but I don't think the Buffalo Bore is over max SAAMI pressure.
Alliant 2006 data shows Power Pistol powder values from 5.5" BBL as:
200 FMJ @ 7.7 grains 1,145 fps 35,600 psi
190 JFP @ 8.2 grains 1,200 fps 35,900 psi
180 JHP @ 8.7 grains 1,240 fps 34,900 psi
180 Lead @ 8.7 grains 1,235 fps 34,700 psi
155 Lead @ 9.5 grains 1,320 fps 33,000 psi
150 JHP @ 9.7 grains 1,415 fps 35,600 psi
135 JHP @ 10.6 grains 1,530 fps 35,600 psi
At these values they are far below the 37,500 psi but this is a faster powder and builds pressure fairly quickly.
How do the books establish max? Seems they vary.
The loads just need to fit the inside the SAAMI Spec as set. It doesn't matter if the data is published at lower values as a safety cushion. :-\
Pressure testing info...
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf)
Example of 205 10mm pressure MAP
The specific loads of the test have to fit the MAP set by SAAMI.
Here is a typical MAP as set by SAAMI
Nominal Mean Instrument @ 15 feet with =/-90 fps from test barrel
Maximum Adverage pressure MAP of 35700 psi
Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38700 psi
Maximum Portable Sample Mean MPSM of 40500 psi
The ammunition in test (10 rounds) would need to fit this established profile.
Nothing in the sample over 40500 psi
I have some of this due today.
Will de-virginize my glock (perfection 8) prolly tomorrow with it and some buffalo bore, some cor bon, and american eagle 40 short n weak powered
Will you be chronographing any of them?
Tested in 10mm S&W1006 5" June 8, 2013
Underwood 180gr Speer TMJ 1312 fps (failed to extract) / 1025 fps ?
I have seen this (failed to extract) a couple of times, 135 Gr @1700 with popped primer, this one and the 220 gr UW, and awhile back with the 9x25Dillon test. I need to inspect the extractor and spring and for foreign debris behind the extractor... :-[
No extraction problems here. Close again to the ~ 1300 I have been getting.
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 08 2013 06:01:08 PM MDTTested in 10mm S&W1006 5" June 8, 2013
Underwood 180gr Speer TMJ 1312 fps (failed to extract) / 1025 fps ?
LOL. Another weird velocity that we'll never have an answer to. Just irks me, but I'm better now. :D
It's not weird. You get these every so often and that's why shooting 5-10 shot strings tell the picture.
I think I have passed enough ammo over one to be a field service technician about now :-X
Maybe weird was too strong of a word for the context I used it.
Either way, in my mind, it would be nice to know the "why" to ammo that was meant to do 275 more FPS than one round achieved, didn't.
We're not talking normal standard deviation here.
Redline, these Chronographs can even see even powder specs, the blast wave can disrupt the timing if it passes over a sensor.
BB's are easily seen and counted, if using the thing with out the sky screens, a bird or bug can trigger timing circuits.
I had about 3 readings that registered less than they should have...you guess is as good as any I suppose.
Can't really say I even have a specific guess. Overall I figure there are really only two possibilities though; 1) Chronograph Error for whatever reason, or 2) Undercharged round.
I'm pretty much with you in leaning toward a bad chronograph reading.
The variations in Underwood O.A.L. affects my 1911. That gun feeds Double Tap and Buffalo Bore hollow points very reliably but rounds won't make it into the chamber with a lot of the Underwood ammo.
I'm thinking of getting handloading equipment not only to assemble ammo I'm pleased with, but to pull apart and rebuild some of my UW rounds.
Is that doable, reassembling UW rounds with carefully measured power and carefully seated bullets?
Harry it is possible, when I do the pull-downs, I resize the casing without depriming, this allows for the case mouth to be smaller, then run the expander inside for uniformity and just allow the bullet to start. That way the bullet won't snag as I reseat and keeps bullet tension is tight. I still seat to depth with out adding any crimp, once seated then I taper crimp to finish. You could try to just seat them deeper, but more than likely the bullet will buckle the case mouth because they are already crimped.
You could possibly ask Underwood to seat to a working COL of your specifications... ??? Kevin may accommodate your request!
DT has been seating to 1.2450" -1.2470" for the most part.
UW has been seting to 1.2500" -1.2520" average.
Thanks. I'm taking notes from your post. :)
I have a business acquaintance who invited me to his ranch to show me how to hand-load. I'm going to accept his offer.
I'm thinking I want rounds made with TLC. I bought two thousand rounds of DT between 2005 and 2006, back when he seemed to care. Those performed as spec'ed on the label and feed perfectly. But I don't trust his new stuff. And Buffalo Bore will send you rounds made from whatever they can find.
I appreciate Underwood, but his QC is still evolving. Hand-loading could be fun.
Handloading does take time and you need to take the time to insure your own quality controls. I find it to be a rewarding and relaxing as I get into my own world and zone in on the steps. Even though I have a Dillon 550B, I still use my single stage press the most. If you have the time, you just might find it very rewarding as well.
I cut my teeth doing 44 magnums, then 38/357 and some rifle cartridges. 10mm has added extra steps, to insure the cartridges I produce will feed reliably. I use mostly pre-fired brass, so inspections at every step help to weed out or correct any issues. That being said, the "Pass-Thru" sizing / reconditioning has been a very positive addition, with regards to better feeding and function cartridges. I use the LEE FCD and a bullet push pin from a cast bullet sizing kit because I had it on hand.
I use the 10mm FCD for "Pass-Thru" sizing of 10mm, 40S&W, 357Sig & 9x25Dillon because of the results I achieve in reconditioning them. I like it so much, I am doing my 45ACP brass also in it's own FCD with great results.
The handloading aspect takes you to another dimension with regards to appreciating your shooting entertainment and needs! It's going to be tough to get going due to the current lack of supplies, therefore I wish you luck gathering your stuff up.