I do not reload as most of you know but am curious. what is the hottest 10mm load that the components and gun can handle. I know that a custom made revolver will handle more than a Stock Glock so lets assume a big well made revolver. What speed,energy and pressures could it possibly handle. I assume you will run out of case space before you would blow up the gun. so whats the max numbers for the case? Lets use a 135-165gr bullet for this experiment. Like I said just trying to see what is possible for you munitions scientist.
Not sure I get it.
You most certainly can blow up a gun, and tear up some body parts pretty bad, with a 10mm case. A case full of Red Dot, for instance, would probably work very well to rapidly detail strip a gun, and maybe part of your hand.
As far as hottest "reasonably safe" loads, check out the underwood pulldowns. Those are really about as hot as you are going to want to go.
The Hottest loading has to do with two things, bullet weight being used with a particular powder.
Foe instance SwampFox used to load 10.0 grains of LongShot powder over 200 grain XTP for a yield of 1325 fps, yes in some chambers there were case blowouts... :o There was a warning for this loading for ONLY used in guns with full chamber support.
Then they offered a 9.4 grain loading of LongShot for a 1240 fps
SQB: That is what I am asking. I know nothing about different powders or pressures. I am asking so if I ever need to know I do. I know you can blow up anything thats common sense so lets ease on by the obvious my question is what Shadow answered. I also know that no large ammo factory is even going to come close to blow up pressures in any of their ammo. That is called corporate lawyers. Yes Common sense.So you get to the reloaders like you guys who know what will and will not blow your gun and you up. so let me ask this one. With a lighter bullet or you more or less likely to exceed your limits? Or would it be with the heavier bullets. My physics tells me more weight more pressure all things being equal but in reloading they are no equal.That is why I ask. If you think the questions are dumb or do not deserve an answer just ignore the post and save yourself some time.And thanks guys for the answers as I really do not know anything about reloading except the terms and the definitions but I am learning by reading ,asking and listening to guys that do know.
Not a public load but if it really is true the 1900 FPS 165gr the owner of Elite Ammo claims to have shot from his Witness... on a regular basis.
The Underwood 155's I had that did over 1600 FPS are the hottest I shot!
SwampFox used to also load to these values for the 4.6" barrels...
135gr @ 1700 fps (Nosler)
155gr @ 1525 fps (XTP)
180gr @ 1400 fps (XTP)
200gr @ 1240 fps (XTP & FMJ)
200gr @ 1325 fps (XTP & FMJ) FULLY SUPPORTED AFTERMARKET BARREL ONLY
Underwood loads to these values for the 4.6" barrels...Some of these may have changed...
Nosler 135gr JHP 1600 fps
Hornady 155gr XTP 1500 fps
Hornady 165gr JHP 1400 fps
Hornady 180gr JHP 1300 fps
Hornady 200gr JHP 1250 fps
Hard Cast 220gr HCFN 1200 fps
I have and have shot most of the hottest Underwood loads in a couple of Glocks and not had any problems. i expect them to also shoot well in the Ruger.
:o If those SwampFox numbers are accurate a 135 gr @ 1700 fps out of a Glock (4.6") would be 1800+ out of a 6" LS barrel.
Now I see why we hear of blown cases almost every week. When some ammo companies are pushing the limits of pressure/performance ,if the loads are just a couple grains off on the high side you get extemely high pressure and blown cases/guns.
When hog hunting my standard load for my G20SF is a 215gr hard cast at 1220 fps, it does 1300 out of my LWD 5.46" barrel.
Sean
Why this fascination by a LOT of people about how fast they can push a bullet and get away with it? RRM is FAR from the first person I have heasrd ask this question. I have yet to find the most accurate loading is anywhere even NEAR a recipe maximum. My normal recipe is a 185 grain bullet probably around 1100. To me ACCURACY is all. Plus even if your gun can take a max, you are STILL battering it pretty good with the uberloads. I would expect parts to wear out way faster. Just for an example of what I mean by accurate, here is a target at 21 feet using my pet 185 grain reloads around 1100 fps and a Dan Wesson Razorback 10mm.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/dwgroup.jpg)
Now I could push the velocity WAY over this, but this was the most accurate velocity for these bullets.
;D I'm with you gandog56 , although the op was about max velocity. It's all about ACCURACY to me (and most).
And by the way that is some nice shooting.
Why? Because we can. Been doing it for near 40 years, in search of maximum energy on target. The objective: reduced package size (the very reason the Alaskan ever existed). Big power can be had, up to and including the likes of .50 BMG or .600 Nitro. The search is for the most effective power that can be reliably placed on target, in the smallest package as practical. Your comfort zone, skill level (shooting and/or cartridge engineering), and available equipment/resources are limiting factors. Settling for less than optimal (according to MY interpretation of optimal) is a personal choice, and there's nothing wrong with that. Less than 1% of all the cartridges I produce venture outside the "factory" offerings. But WOW, what a 1%!
In years past I didn't limit myself to short distance shooting with handguns but challenged myself to longer shots...100 yards and even more. I use to get great groups at 130 yards from my S&W1006 and even made a friend mad by taking his targets for his 30'06 out before he could get setup...I will say coordination, eye sight and strength were much better 23 years ago.
BTW he was shooting 30'06's I loaded for him and he was very impressed with there performance from them.
The loads were with Blue Dot...with my 44mag which took a deer at 180 yards thru the heart. 8)
Yes many have chased the higher velocities over the years, why? Because the extra velocity equals extra bullet energy, less drift and less drop at distance. It does nothing if you can hit the target! :o This is where handloading my own has paid dividends, better performance ammunition, at reasonable prices, while utilizing premium components or even cast bullet for even cheaper produced ammo. Mild to wild it's all good! ;D
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 30 2013 10:12:07 AM MDT
In years past I didn't limit myself to short distance shooting with handguns but challenged myself to longer shots...100 yards and even more. I use to get great groups at 130 yards from my S&W1006 and even made a friend mad by taking his targets for his 30'06 out before he could get setup...I will say coordination, eye sight and strength were much better 23 years ago.
BTW he was shooting 30'06's I loaded for him and he was very impressed with there performance from them.
The loads were with Blue Dot...with my 44mag which took a deer at 180 yards thru the heart. 8)
Yes many have chased the higher velocities over the years, why? Because the extra velocity equals extra bullet energy, less drift and less drop at distance. It does nothing if you can hit the target! :o This is where handloading my own has paid dividends, better performance ammunition, at reasonable prices, while utilizing premium components or even cast bullet for even cheaper produced ammo. Mild to wild it's all good! ;D
This. Well said.
There is pinpoint accuracy and then there is adequate accuracy. I will take adequate accuracy with as much power as I can realistically get over pinpoint accuracy in a lesser or mouse fart load.
For me it is not about putting ten bullets through the same hole on a flat dry sheet of wood pulp based medium in the least amount of time galactically possible. I want greatest terminal upset possible whether I'm shooing water jugs or hunting or defending myself from adversaries, with accuracy that's good enough.
Some argue that by going with a more powerful load, even if accuracy is fine, that it only slows follow up shots. I argue; 1) IMO no 10mm load ever reaches that boundary at any power level from a full sized platform, 2) IMO I have a fair chance of needing less good hits to get the job done with a ~750 ft-lb over a ~500 ft-lb load assuming you're using the energy available wisely in the first place, and 3) I'm not interested in the bullet going through the same hole more than once.
But, different folks, different strokes.
A quantified realization:
Every one of my firearms is absolutely capable of accuracy I will never attain. I'm a "good shooter", but the machines are more capable than I am. I pick and choose which firearms I shoot, and what degree of accuracy I demand. My combat weapons require combat accuracy (get the job done, quick and dirty). My hunting and competition weapons require competition accuracy. Many of them cross both requirements, and I train accordingly. I train multiple disciplines, everything from combat survival to one-hole competition. Every incident, be it planned or otherwise, demands a specific discipline. The weapon platform and ammunition becomes less important than the discipline employed. It makes no difference at the time which weapon platform is available to you during a specific incident. Choose the best option of what's available, and use it according to the discipline required. This means, simply (a very loose example of extremes), if I have a .30-06 and a .380ACP in possession, and a 300 yd. shot is required, I'm not, obviously, going to choose the .380. Similarly, if I'm in a small enclosed area, and the target is relatively small and mobile, the .380 would likely be the better choice, despite the infinitesimally fractional power level. In either case, both weapons are capable of the objective, and rely only on my training and accomplished ability within the specific discipline. My ability, however adequate, is what I have to work with, and no amount of bullet velocity, power or performance will alter that. It is my job to make available to the situation the greatest potential of each tool available, which leaves only my ability as a variable.
If you can't control multiple firings of a platform, when multiple firings maybe required, you're using the wrong weapon, or lack sufficient training or personal ability. If your weapon platform of choice allows this ability, then using anything that doesn't is less than ideal (although this doesn't mean ineffective, necessarily). In (almost) every situation I may find myself in, chances are I will not have in possession the ideal weapon platform. The answer? There is no answer, only speculation. The exact proper weapon platform will only be known in hindsight.
The OP question, and following appropriate argument, has nothing to do with what's "ideal", specific to any situation. The question begs the answer, what is the limit, or the limit you've experienced? When in a race, if you don't know the objective distance and your current position, you won't know where you are in the race, or how your ability may allow you to place. Knowing, or intelligently suspecting, your limitation gives perspective of your current position and ability. "A man's got to know his limitations", as said by some famous person. The limitations can be realized or imagined. Which do you think would be more accurate? At what point does it matter? Some people prefer, if not require, the realization, while others are content with the experience of others (imagined), while other people find the answer somewhere among the two.
Nice post DM, I agree 100% with you (and Shadow).
Quote from: DM1906 on May 30 2013 12:57:04 PM MDTIf you can't control multiple firings of a platform, when multiple firings maybe required, you're using the wrong weapon, or lack sufficient training or personal ability. If your weapon platform of choice allows this ability,...
The question then is; What is the definition of controlling multiple firings of a platform? How many how slow is the cut off limit to the extent one is considered failed?
Quote from: REDLINE on May 30 2013 09:41:11 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on May 30 2013 12:57:04 PM MDTIf you can't control multiple firings of a platform, when multiple firings maybe required, you're using the wrong weapon, or lack sufficient training or personal ability. If your weapon platform of choice allows this ability,...
The question then is; What is the definition of controlling multiple firings of a platform? How many how slow is the cut off limit to the extent one is considered failed?
It would depend on what "multiple firings may be required" means at the time. Only saying, that no matter the situation, if the weapon platform you have in hand doesn't allow you to do what's necessary at the time, you have the wrong platform or your ability is failed. Someone else brought up the "follow up shots". I just used it as an illustration, and it applies to many aspects of the discussion. Of course, we know we can't have the ideal weapon/platform available to every situation, which was also part of the point. To say (or imply) "This is what I use and it is the only thing I will use because I can use it and it should be the only thing you should use because I use it and I'm right" is useless to any discussion.
Multiple firing controllability....
I like the Mozambique drill as a good test of this. From low ready, put two in the 9" pie plate "chest" and 1 in the 4" saucer "head" in 1.5 seconds at about 10'. Faster if you can, obviously, but if you can't accomplish very reliably then you need more practice or less gun.
Just my opinion.
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 31 2013 11:12:53 AM MDT
Multiple firing controllability....
I like the Mozambique drill as a good test of this. From low ready, put two in the 9" pie plate "chest" and 1 in the 4" saucer "head" in 1.5 seconds at about 10'. Faster if you can, obviously, but if you can't accomplish very reliably then you need more practice or less gun.
Just my opinion.
In the "business", AKA: Body Armor Drill. Learn it. Live it.
So it's just another aspect of give and take depending on how each individual balances all their options out for a given task or foreseen risk possibility.
Quote from: DM1906 on May 30 2013 09:37:02 AM MDT
Why? Because we can.
Still doesn't matter. In 35 + years of reloading, I have YET to find the most accurate load to be anywhere near a max recipe. It's usually somewhere in the middle.
I recently launched a 220gr cast bullet at 1407fps :o
it came out of a 6.6" tube with a comp on it, but still, that is a SPICY meatball
I'll post details of the load once I establish that its not super dangerous
Quote from: gofastman on June 03 2013 08:29:56 AM MDT220gr cast bullet at 1407fps...6.6" tube...
Wow. Impressive, scary load or not!
indeed, i thought maybe it was an error, but it was backed up by 5 high 1300fps readings
gofastman, that might be real values you have seen, but let us consider that you have a longer 6.6" aftermarket barrel and also assume you have a beefed up RSA as well. The details of the load is not all that are needed but the specification of your equipment as well. Not saying you CHRONY is wrong but out of spec / false readings are possible. ???
I wouldn't advise anyone to try that loading directly without careful attention to the details and testing from lower charge weights and working up to see how those loads. Not something for the casual NUBBIE reloader or shooter, who doesn't have a clue of what things to look for.
Quote from: DM1906 on May 30 2013 12:57:04 PM MDT
A quantified realization:
Every one of my firearms is absolutely capable of accuracy I will never attain.
Me neither, but near max loads definitely make my groups get bigger.
I feel I DID come close, here. 21 feet, Dan Wesson Razorback 10mm, my 185 grain (Not even NEAR a max load) reloads
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/dwgroup.jpg)
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 04 2013 10:37:37 AM MDT
gofastman, that might be real values you have seen, but let us consider that you have a longer 6.6" aftermarket barrel and also assume you have a beefed up RSA as well. The details of the load is not all that are needed but the specification of your equipment as well. Not saying you CHRONY is wrong but out of spec / false readings are possible. ???
I wouldn't advise anyone to try that loading directly without careful attention to the details and testing from lower charge weights and working up to see how those loads. Not something for the casual NUBBIE reloader or shooter, who doesn't have a clue of what things to look for.
good point.
This load is really about 200fps faster than it needs to be, I doubt it would out-penetrate a 1200fps load, probably just smoosh the bullet more on impact.
I think 230grs@1200fps is the most you can get out of the 10, both from an internal and terminal ballistics standpoint
I use some pretty heavy duty safety gear when working with this level of loading.
face shield, Dyneema gloves, and ballistic V0 goggles; because you cant always stop stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it kills you.
Besides, if I want more, that I can barely handle, I pull out my .454 Casull!
I do love my 2 10's though.
Quote from: gofastman on June 03 2013 08:29:56 AM MDT
I recently launched a 220gr cast bullet at 1407fps :o
it came out of a 6.6" tube with a comp on it, but still, that is a SPICY meatball
I'll post details of the load once I establish that its not super dangerous
I just received my MechTech and I want to work up to this load in it!
in general, how does the mechtech handle nuclear loads?
QuoteBesides, if I want more, that I can barely handle, I pull out my .454 Casull!
yep! nothing like 38grs of W296 to wake a person up in the morning! :P
If the massive shockwave doesnt do it, the front sight smacking you in the head will!
I've so far managed NOT to do the head smacking thing. :P
I got a real world load from a friend that is 155gr Barnes at 1535fps which makes in nuclear. I will not shoot it in a Glock but in my Ruger no problems. amazing how much more the Ruger can handle than the Auto's. The cases,primers and components fail before the gun. Not so in the others.Im sure you can blow a Ruger as any gun will blow with stupidity but they will take a beating. An old gunner like me can learn if he listens and reads and listens with his mouth shut till he can ask a good question.
Quote from: DM1906 on May 30 2013 09:37:02 AM MDT
Why? Because we can. Been doing it for near 40 years, in search of maximum energy on target. The objective: reduced package size (the very reason the Alaskan ever existed). Big power can be had, up to and including the likes of .50 BMG or .600 Nitro. The search is for the most effective power that can be reliably placed on target, in the smallest package as practical. Your comfort zone, skill level (shooting and/or cartridge engineering), and available equipment/resources are limiting factors. Settling for less than optimal (according to MY interpretation of optimal) is a personal choice, and there's nothing wrong with that. Less than 1% of all the cartridges I produce venture outside the "factory" offerings. But WOW, what a 1%!
Dm.
I have to say when loading for my Dan Wesson 445 supermag like you stated your 1%.. for me I was easily north or 25-30% outside book.
Otherwise I was just loading a 44 mag with a nice stiff load In a longer 445 supermag brass.
Brian
Quote from: 445 supermag on July 01 2013 10:17:58 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on May 30 2013 09:37:02 AM MDT
Why? Because we can. Been doing it for near 40 years, in search of maximum energy on target. The objective: reduced package size (the very reason the Alaskan ever existed). Big power can be had, up to and including the likes of .50 BMG or .600 Nitro. The search is for the most effective power that can be reliably placed on target, in the smallest package as practical. Your comfort zone, skill level (shooting and/or cartridge engineering), and available equipment/resources are limiting factors. Settling for less than optimal (according to MY interpretation of optimal) is a personal choice, and there's nothing wrong with that. Less than 1% of all the cartridges I produce venture outside the "factory" offerings. But WOW, what a 1%!
Dm.
I have to say when loading for my Dan Wesson 445 supermag like you stated your 1%.. for me I was easily north or 25-30% outside book.
Otherwise I was just loading a 44 mag with a nice stiff load In a longer 445 supermag brass.
Brian
I'm trying to figure out what you are saying. You make stout .44 mag stiff loads using 445 Supermag brass? Isn't Supermag too long to fit in a .44? Or are you saying you load your Supermag brass DOWN to 44 mag specs?
Maybe not the hottest ever, but dang good numbers from a stock 4.6" Glock 20. I was using VV 3N38 and was able to average a 180gr Rem JHP at 1,350 and a 200gr Beartooth WFNGC at 1250 from my Gen4 G20. Brass didn't look bad at all, I'm very pleased.
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 29 2013 06:05:56 PM MDT
SwampFox used to also load to these values for the 4.6" barrels...
135gr @ 1700 fps (Nosler)
155gr @ 1525 fps (XTP)
180gr @ 1400 fps (XTP)
200gr @ 1240 fps (XTP & FMJ)
200gr @ 1325 fps (XTP & FMJ) FULLY SUPPORTED AFTERMARKET BARREL ONLY
Underwood loads to these values for the 4.6" barrels...Some of these may have changed...
Nosler 135gr JHP 1600 fps
Hornady 155gr XTP 1500 fps
Hornady 165gr JHP 1400 fps
Hornady 180gr JHP 1300 fps
Hornady 200gr JHP 1250 fps
Hard Cast 220gr HCFN 1200 fps
thanks shadow for sharing this info, i personally feel comfortable with the Underwood max listed above except for the hard cast as i started to see rapidly increasing pressure at 1100 fps for my own 225gr wfn cast boolits
note: it would be great if anyone posting load data would also post case head expansion, and the brand/age of the case, as this gives an objective data point for what type of pressure you are experiencing, to say "the primer looked good" doesn't give much meaningful information, just sayin' :)
Wouldn't that vary for different guns due to maybe slightly different case dimensions? Of course, their stated velocities in reloading manualsare also like that, and they DO list that.
All of the Underwood data is listed and case expansions as tested are listed in the Pull-Down sections...
I tested the SwampFox Hornady 200XTP @ 1240 fps with good results which used LongShot powder.
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 30 2013 10:12:07 AM MDT
In years past I didn't limit myself to short distance shooting with handguns but challenged myself to longer shots...100 yards and even more. I use to get great groups at 130 yards from my S&W1006 and even made a friend mad by taking his targets for his 30'06 out before he could get setup...I will say coordination, eye sight and strength were much better 23 years ago.
BTW he was shooting 30'06's I loaded for him and he was very impressed with there performance from them.
The loads were with Blue Dot...with my 44mag which took a deer at 180 yards thru the heart. 8)
Yes many have chased the higher velocities over the years, why? Because the extra velocity equals extra bullet energy, less drift and less drop at distance. It does nothing if you can hit the target! :o This is where handloading my own has paid dividends, better performance ammunition, at reasonable prices, while utilizing premium components or even cast bullet for even cheaper produced ammo. Mild to wild it's all good! ;D
This ....
Also, I feel that the reason people choose **10mm** as their caliber to hotrod is that it's the only automatic service caliber that is close enough in power to a true hunting caliber to make it truly a worthwhile cause .... and people want to make full use of that versatility. Not only that but the 10mm has nice strong brass and is excellent for hand loading in general.
Quote from: nickE10mm on July 13 2013 11:22:10 AM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 30 2013 10:12:07 AM MDT
In years past I didn't limit myself to short distance shooting with handguns but challenged myself to longer shots...100 yards and even more. I use to get great groups at 130 yards from my S&W1006 and even made a friend mad by taking his targets for his 30'06 out before he could get setup...I will say coordination, eye sight and strength were much better 23 years ago.
BTW he was shooting 30'06's I loaded for him and he was very impressed with there performance from them.
The loads were with Blue Dot...with my 44mag which took a deer at 180 yards thru the heart. 8)
Yes many have chased the higher velocities over the years, why? Because the extra velocity equals extra bullet energy, less drift and less drop at distance. It does nothing if you can hit the target! :o This is where handloading my own has paid dividends, better performance ammunition, at reasonable prices, while utilizing premium components or even cast bullet for even cheaper produced ammo. Mild to wild it's all good! ;D
This ....
Also, I feel that the reason people choose **10mm** as their caliber to hotrod is that it's the only automatic service caliber that is close enough in power to a true hunting caliber to make it truly a worthwhile cause .... and people want to make full use of that versatility. Not only that but the 10mm has nice strong brass and is excellent for hand loading in general.
The 10mm is very versatile...bullet selection and weights across a broad spectrum of ballistic potential from semiauto package. Not to mention barrel swaps for other cartridges like the 40S&W, 357Sig & 9x25Dillon from the same magazines to add even more flexibility! 8)
Quote from: nickE10mm on July 13 2013 11:22:10 AM MDTI feel that the reason people choose **10mm** as their caliber to hotrod is that it's the only automatic service caliber that is close enough in power to a true hunting caliber to make it truly a worthwhile cause ....
There are a LOT of people that think 10mm IS a true hunting caliber. It's their gun of choice for hawg hunting.
Quote from: gandog56 on July 02 2013 07:32:13 AM MDT
Quote from: 445 supermag on July 01 2013 10:17:58 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on May 30 2013 09:37:02 AM MDT
Why? Because we can. Been doing it for near 40 years, in search of maximum energy on target. The objective: reduced package size (the very reason the Alaskan ever existed). Big power can be had, up to and including the likes of .50 BMG or .600 Nitro. The search is for the most effective power that can be reliably placed on target, in the smallest package as practical. Your comfort zone, skill level (shooting and/or cartridge engineering), and available equipment/resources are limiting factors. Settling for less than optimal (according to MY interpretation of optimal) is a personal choice, and there's nothing wrong with that. Less than 1% of all the cartridges I produce venture outside the "factory" offerings. But WOW, what a 1%!
Sorry it didnt come across right. I ment unless I loaded over book for the 445 supermag I would just get stiff 44 mag load.
See in the DW 445 supermag and using book loads it would only equal a hot 44mag or just a bit more. You cant really get a nice bump in velocity like I would of liked to have seen
Dm.
I have to say when loading for my Dan Wesson 445 supermag like you stated your 1%.. for me I was easily north or 25-30% outside book. Otherwise I was just loading a 44 mag with a nice stiff load In a longer 445 supermag brass.
Brian
I'm trying to figure out what you are saying. You make stout .44 mag stiff loads using 445 Supermag brass? Isn't Supermag too long to fit in a .44? Or are you saying you load your Supermag brass DOWN to 44 mag specs?
Quote from: DM1906 on May 30 2013 09:37:02 AM MDT
Why? Because we can. Been doing it for near 40 years, in search of maximum energy on target. The objective: reduced package size (the very reason the Alaskan ever existed). Big power can be had, up to and including the likes of .50 BMG or .600 Nitro. The search is for the most effective power that can be reliably placed on target, in the smallest package as practical. Your comfort zone, skill level (shooting and/or cartridge engineering), and available equipment/resources are limiting factors. Settling for less than optimal (according to MY interpretation of optimal) is a personal choice, and there's nothing wrong with that. Less than 1% of all the cartridges I produce venture outside the "factory" offerings. But WOW, what a 1%!
Different values. I can jump off a cliff. I don't choose to. Like I said, accuracy is all to me, and I have never achieved that at a max load in 35+ years of reloading. So personally, I see no need to do it.
Then don't do it. Simple.
I would agree, airing on the sides of functional reliability and accuracy...We still need to explore the ballistic potentials but not necessarily carry those as our carry ammo...
Handloading allows for making custom rounds to fit any and all situations...Not to mention the excitement! ;D
Quote from: DM1906 on July 16 2013 03:19:29 PM MDT
Then don't do it. Simple.
That's easy, I DON'T! The problem here is I'm trying to understand OTHER people's reasoning for always wanting max velocity loads as the end all product.
Quote from: gandog56 on July 17 2013 08:26:27 AM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 16 2013 03:19:29 PM MDT
Then don't do it. Simple.
That's easy, I DON'T! The problem here is I'm trying to understand OTHER people's reasoning for always wanting max velocity loads as the end all product.
It isn't that, at all. Maximum power ON TARGET is the goal. But, ridiculous power a
little on target is just plain fun.
All I'm saying is ridiculous power may not even HIT that little target! Like I said, I refine recipes until I find the MOST accurate load. Which has NEVER been near a max load.
The things I also take into consideration are:
The Gun - its trigger pull and reset, sights (target or combat style), balance and weight and barrel length.
The Ammo - what is the intended use (personal protection, hunting, target or general plinking), which ever it is it has to run 100% functional.
The Shooter - Needs to understand his limitations, strength or weaknesses, the guns limitations as it pertains those the needs.
The Bullet - selection, design (JHP, FMJ, Cast, SWC, other), weight vs. use. We 10mm users are using the current bullet designs as produced by the manufactures which are mostly designed for the weaker 40S&W cartridge performance envelope. Therefore when we push the envelope of the design characteristics, we may see some negative results in terminal ballistics.
The Hornady XTP's are a tougher bullet, but I feel the 200gr XTP HP cavity is a little too small, but will work
I am in the heavier weight bullet arena for 10mm because of many of these aspects. One of the reasons that the 45ACP was successful was because they were driving the heavy 230 grain FMJ bullets at the safest maximum velocity.
Even the FBI study searched the 10mm and settled on the 180 grain bullet at 980 fps, but that was meant to fit particular criterion and test medias. Seeing how Law Enforcement works in numbers of personnel and close proximity, their goal is to bring the perp into custody while keeping themselves and others in proximity safe.
Seeing those Speer 200 grain Gold Dot HP's are very interesting and promising which should provide great performance at the (=/+/-) 1200 fps velocity range.
I like 180-185 grain loads? Why? Because the couple brands of 200 grain bullets I tried were not as...dare I say it....accurate.
Quote from: DM1906 on July 17 2013 11:58:30 PM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on July 17 2013 08:26:27 AM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 16 2013 03:19:29 PM MDT
Then don't do it. Simple.
That's easy, I DON'T! The problem here is I'm trying to understand OTHER people's reasoning for always wanting max velocity loads as the end all product.
It isn't that, at all. Maximum power ON TARGET is the goal. But, ridiculous power a little on target is just plain fun.
Exactly. 8)
Quote from: gandog56 on July 18 2013 08:48:45 AM MDTAll I'm saying is ridiculous power may not even HIT that little target!
At what range? What little target? 200 meters out silhouette targets?
Quote from: REDLINE on July 20 2013 12:27:20 PM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on July 18 2013 08:48:45 AM MDTAll I'm saying is ridiculous power may not even HIT that little target!
At what range? What little target? 200 meters out silhouette targets?
Of course.
Quote from: DM1906 on July 20 2013 01:04:25 PM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on July 20 2013 12:27:20 PM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on July 18 2013 08:48:45 AM MDTAll I'm saying is ridiculous power may not even HIT that little target!
At what range? What little target? 200 meters out silhouette targets?
Of course.
I wonder if gangdog56 understands the difference between bullseye shooting and combat accuracy? I'll take waaaaay more power with combat accuracy over a mousefart bullseye load anyday for self defense.
If all I cared about was bullseye shooting I'ld get a 9mm since power wouldn't be in the equation anymore anyway.
Quote from: REDLINE on July 20 2013 01:57:53 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 20 2013 01:04:25 PM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on July 20 2013 12:27:20 PM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on July 18 2013 08:48:45 AM MDTAll I'm saying is ridiculous power may not even HIT that little target!
At what range? What little target? 200 meters out silhouette targets?
Of course.
You going to chase me all over this board to insult me, now? Get a frikkin' life, dude!
I wonder if gangdog56 understands the difference between bullseye shooting and combat accuracy? I'll take waaaaay more power with combat accuracy over a mousefart bullseye load anyday for self defense.
If all I cared about was bullseye shooting I'ld get a 9mm since power wouldn't be in the equation anymore anyway.
Quote from: gandog56 on July 20 2013 08:19:39 PM MDTYou going to chase me all over this board to insult me, now? Get a frikkin' life, dude!
You think you're being chased? No, I'm not chasing you.
I did honestly ask you;
At what range? What little target? 200 meters out silhouette targets?If you'ld like to offer an answer, that would be great. In the mean time I was left to my own surmise. Sorry it deeply offended you. 8)
Well, when I see you also going after me over something I posted in another thread, what else am I supposed to believe? By the way, the protests over the Zimmerman trial results are growing daily. I suppose every single one of the protesters is irrational since they disagree with you.
I would agree that the ones beating white people, looting stores, and burning buildings are, but surely not ALL of them are irrational. Do not make blanket statements like that.
What I like about the 10mm is it has the widest selection of bullet types and weights of any caliber on the market. I have shot 135 gr Nosler close to 1700fps to 200gr Hornady pushing 1200fps and everything in between, you can't do this with other calibers. I love 38 Super and love it for just CCW due to light weight and ease of shooting, but nothing brings on peace of mind like my 180 to 200gr 10's that's for sure. Just wish they could make a light weight alloy 1911 Commander in 10mm that would hold up under the 10mm, until then it will be 38 Super.
Well I'm headed out to my shop to load some 10mm before switching the Dillon over for 38 Super making some HC L/SWC for paper punching with my DW RZ 38 Super when it arrives hopefully for my 68th birthday 25th of this month.
And as usual I will leave now for awhile as I get tired of the BS of "know it all" and whiners and will leave you all to you squabbles and bitch slapping. See you all again maybe next month or in a year, who knows.
Retired Squid? I did only 6 years in the Navy. Left an E-6 because I didn't want to deal with all the government red tape and paperwork when I started to run the ship's calibration laboratory. That and the only shore duty they wanted to give me fo re-upping was Norfolk, VA. No thanks! I was a decommissioning ships crew there, and hated the place. Wasn't about to do four more years on the big grey boats. And about one month after I got out, my last ship was sent for an extended stay in friggin' Diego Garcia! Probably way worse than Norfolk! :D
Quote from: gandog56 on July 21 2013 06:43:44 AM MDTWell, when I see you also going after me over something I posted in another thread, what else am I supposed to believe?
I did not go after you. They are two different threads on entirely different subjects in entirely different subforums. Nothing in common but you and me which is only coincidence. I have nothing against you personally. I also don't see this as a thread to bring up TM/GZ and therefore will not comment about it here.
Is there any chance you will answer my questions asked below? If not that's fine, but they were an honest part of general conversation within the context of this thread. I'm starting to feel like you're more worried about what amounts to nothing than honest conversation in the first place. My thing at this point is I can't figure why you commented at all on some of what you did below if you never cared about honest conversation in the first place.
I would like to get along. I have no real animosity toward you and never did. Let's let misconceptions be bygones. 8)
P & E Planner for ET & MIRC's labs on USS Shenandoah AD 44, off and on in the '80's and enjoyed writing controlled work packages for level A and nuke repairs. Planning for ET's & IM's cal shops was just boring, EM shops were a PIA because of all the different sizes and mfg's of motors, but I really liked doing R-5 weapons and weight testing.
Quote from: Retired Squid on July 21 2013 02:15:14 PM MDT
P & E Planner for ET & MIRC's labs on USS Shenandoah AD 44, off and on in the '80's and enjoyed writing controlled work packages for level A and nuke repairs. Planning for ET's & IM's cal shops was just boring, EM shops were a PIA because of all the different sizes and mfg's of motors, but I really liked doing R-5 weapons and weight testing.
Weird, I was a P&E planner and ET on the USS Howard W. Gilmore (AS-16) about 1980 before a slot in the calibration lab opened up.
(http://reunionpro.com/sites/reunionpro.com/files/Howard%20Gilmore%20picture.jpg)
Small world.
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 18 2013 12:46:54 PM MDT
The things I also take into consideration are:
The Gun - its trigger pull and reset, sights (target or combat style), balance and weight and barrel length.
The Ammo - what is the intended use (personal protection, hunting, target or general plinking), which ever it is it has to run 100% functional.
The Shooter - Needs to understand his limitations, strength or weaknesses, the guns limitations as it pertains those the needs.
The Bullet - selection, design (JHP, FMJ, Cast, SWC, other), weight vs. use. We 10mm users are using the current bullet designs as produced by the manufactures which are mostly designed for the weaker 40S&W cartridge performance envelope. Therefore when we push the envelope of the design characteristics, we may see some negative results in terminal ballistics.
The Hornady XTP's are a tougher bullet, but I feel the 200gr XTP HP cavity is a little too small, but will work
I would love to see Hornady release their Critical Duty bullets for reloading. It seems to perform the same, with identical expansion characteristics & weight retention at a huge variation of velocity. It could be a great bullet for pushing at high velocity in the 10 even though it performs well at under 1000fps in the 40. I use the +P load in my 9's as my carry load.
Quote from: REDLINE on July 21 2013 01:01:16 PM MDT
I did not go after you. They are two different threads on entirely different subjects in entirely different subforums. Nothing in common but you and me which is only coincidence. I have nothing against you personally. I also don't see this as a thread to bring up TM/GZ and therefore will not comment about it here.
Well, when I make a post and you deride it after posting nothing there from before before June 3rd, what am I supposed to think?
Quote from: DAVIDF on July 24 2013 09:28:29 AM MDT
I would love to see Hornady release their Critical Duty bullets for reloading. It seems to perform the same, with identical expansion characteristics & weight retention at a huge variation of velocity. It could be a great bullet for pushing at high velocity in the 10 even though it performs well at under 1000fps in the 40. I use the +P load in my 9's as my carry load.
That brings up a good point, we see the people in the 9mm and 45ACP and other cartridges adding "Plus P" & even "Plus P Plus" loadings yet the manufacturers' keep down loading the 10mm! Go Figure! :o
We would love to see it loaded at its original loaded velocities and within the SAAMI MAP. The powder companies should also post realistic loading data at the upper SAAMI MAP for more realistic performance pressure values... :'(
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 24 2013 11:54:19 AM MDT
That brings up a good point, we see the people in the 9mm and 45ACP and other cartridges adding "Plus P" & even "Plus P Plus" loadings yet the manufacturers' keep down loading the 10mm! Go Figure! :o
Well, since the only store bought 10mm I own is two boxes of Underwood TMJ and two boxes of Ted Nugent JHP, that's OK. I can reload them to whatever level I like.
my reloading manuals are showing 2-300 fps slower than underwood velocity. what are they doing? i assume it's powder, but not sure and if it is, what kind of powder and where does a guy get it? thanks
Quote from: semper68fi on August 08 2013 12:34:03 PM MDT
my reloading manuals are showing 2-300 fps slower than underwood velocity. what are they doing? i assume it's powder, but not sure and if it is, what kind of powder and where does a guy get it? thanks
Underwood used to exclusively use IMR 800x in it's 10mm loadings, but now we are seeing some loads with Power Pistol and others. If you go to the 10mm factory pull down subforum you can read all about the loads... but you will notice that Underwood's loads are way above any published book load, so work up to them and use extreme caution as there is very little margin of error at that level.
Also, Underwood level loads should not be fired in a factory Delta Elite or other pistols with poor case support.
thank you..
Sounds like they loaded for Kimber type chamber (full supported and way thicker chamber then my Colt) and with 23# to 26# recoil spring.
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 24 2013 11:54:19 AM MDTWe would love to see it loaded at its original loaded velocities and within the SAAMI MAP. The powder companies should also post realistic loading data at the upper SAAMI MAP for more realistic performance pressure values... :'(
YES to both statements!
Quote from: RMM on August 08 2013 12:40:52 PM MDT...you will notice that Underwood's loads are way above any published book load, so work up to them and use extreme caution as there is very little margin of error at that level.
Point taken. But it's also reasonable to point out that where pressure levels aren't published for a max load, it doesn't mean the max listed load is at or anywhere near SAAMI maximum average pressure. Many max book loads don't even reach pressure levels of Winchester SilverTip factory 10mm ammo, which itself doesn't reach SAAMI maximum average pressure.
So yeah, if one is going to attempt loading beyond whatever max book recipe, it must be done methodically and carefully. But it doesn't mean there aren't great SAFE gains to be found beyond plenty of max book recipes.
Redline,
I agree completely and am "above book" on a few of my own loads that I have carefully worked up. I just always like to caution those who are looking to load above book levels in case they don't have the understanding or experience that more experienced loaders do.
Definitely agree. 8)
"Safe" is relative.
There is a reason the publisher listed it as a max load, even if the measured pressure was far below max. May they started seeing wide variations in pressure at the next .1 or .2 grains. Or maybe they encountered a trough, and when they got beyond it they were way up in pressure.
Those issues may have been specific to the test barrel they were using. Or not.
I too have exceeded book values. But I did so with the full knowledge that I had left "safe" reloading practice behind. Exceeded book values may not cost you fingers or your favorite gun, but it is NOT a safe practice. You may enjoy relative safety when loading beyond book values by exercising judgement and wisdom of years of reading and experience...But again, it is NOT a safe practice.
I'm sure the tort lawyers are the main reason for our dilemma here, the way they have so hamstrung the rest of gun industry that it's easily the biggest cost of doing business.