I was loading some 10mm yesterday and went to use some nickel plated brass for the first time along with some 200gr XTP's. Whenever I switch components, I make a dummy round to set seating depth and crimp and fit in my firearm. Afterwards, I went to pull the bullet and it would not come out. The core ended up finally coming out of the jacket but the jacket is still stuck in the case. OAL is 1.260 and the crimp is my usual .423 same as my other rounds with the regular starline brass. I have not used nickel brass before and am wondering if this is typical of that or perhaps the XTP's? Not sure I want to fire a round that is stuck that tight!
Thanks for any help/advice!
Ron
That is strange. I've done the same, but never had a core come out of the jacket like that. The nickel brass does have a higher neck tension (new), and one reason I prefer nickel. I've not pulled a bullet from a dumby round, so maybe the powder charge helps push the bullet out. Never really thought about that.
It was definitely a first for me but also the first time I have used the nickel plated brass and the 200gr XTP's. I guess I need to try loading some other bullets with this brass and see what happens when I try and pull them. I hate to waste brand new brass and bullets but better safe than sorry. They are a lot less expensive than missing fingers and a blown up G20.
rgold1963, what did you use to pull the bullet with? Kinetic puller? Collet puller? Other?
I use a kinetic Type and never had an issue pulling bullets with it...Many thousands pulled and some were glued in place.
I use the end grain of a 4x4 block to rap the puller against, lighter bullets are harder to pull than the heavier ones.
A kinetic puller and I thought for sure I was going to break it trying to get that bullet out. It was a 200 grain JHP and I was hitting the puller against a cement floor.
Ron
Ditto on strange. I've had some 200gr loads that I didn't think the bullet would ever come out of before destroying my kinetic bullet puller. Somehow I've got through all the times I've tried without destroying my kinetic bullet puller. Seems like a miracle sometimes though.
My overall experience has been the opposite of The_Shadow's. I have the most problem/difficulty with the heavy bullets and not much issue with the lighter ones.
Wow... I have never had that issue...Or perhaps I have a different threshold on how hard I hit my puller.
Maybe you simply have a superior puller. I use Hornady's model, and I doubt Hornady actually manufactures it. You know I never thought to look...wonder if it's made in China? I'm out of town for a while, but now I'm curious to check as soon as I do get back home. :-\
I load Starline nickel and regular brass in my Dillon 550. I have noticed that the nickel brass is a bit more brittle compared to standard brass. I have loaded 135 grain bullets up to 180 grain. Usually with the nickel brass I load 175 Silver tip hollow points. Never had an issue with my kinetic puller either. I did break one a couple years back..
QuoteThe core ended up finally coming out of the jacket but the jacket is still stuck in the case.
Got a picture?
Sorry, I'm having a hard time believing a Kinetic puller could separate the core from the jacket of and XTP, or any bullet for that matter.
I will get a picture for you today. I have two that did this. The first core is completely out of the jacket and the second one is almost all the way out. I thought that the first one might just be a defect but it appears it was not. I need to try loading some other bullets in this brass as soon as I have time to see what happens with them. I have several other brands so perhaps this is just a problem with the XTP's.
As far as the kinetic puller goes, I really would expect the plastic to break before a core separated from the jacket of a bullet. Must be some damn tough plastic!
If the core separated from the Hornady XTP then there was something wrong with that bullet... ???
Those who read here, know I have done many pull-downs and I use the RCBS kenitic bullet puller to make short work of this operation. As I mentioned previously I use a piece wooden of 4x4, standing on end, to rap the puller against, this is to protect the puller but still allow the work to be performed.
BTW you don't have to hit all that hard to get the bullet moving, making several raps to ease the bullet out is OK! Let the bullet's weight do the work. When I pull pointed bullets and soft points I place a piece of paper towel in the bottom of my puller to cushion the pulled bullet to eliminate d nose distortion and damage.
When I see that the bullet is about to pull free I use an even lighter touch to contain all of the powder without any loss for the weight of the powder charge.
The hardest thing to pull is a gas check that stayed inside the casing, simply not enough physical weight to pull free. Using a tiny screw driver you can turn it sideways, get the powder out then pull the check free with a needle nose pliers.
Just take your time, you don't need to rap the puller like you are driving 16D nails, try using it like driving a finishing nail.
It is better to hit more times that to hit too hard. 8)
This is the first time I have ever had a problem pulling a bullet and hitting it soft simply didn't do anything. I continually increased the strength of the impact until this happened.
One of the reasons I am going to try a Nosler and Sierra bullet when I have time is to see if it is indeed the XTP's or the brass that is the problem. As you can see in the images, there is still a tiny amount of belling showing in the case so it's not crimped too tightly. I can also see a slight mark from the seater which shows there must have been a lot of resistance as the bullet was being seated. I checked the bullets with a micrometer and they are the same diameter as all my other 10mm bullets which I have never had this problem with.
The first case and separated core.
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The second case with the core coming out. As soon as I saw the core on this one, I stopped trying to get the bullet out.
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Quote from: rgold1963 on May 29 2013 08:59:19 AM MDT
I will get a picture for you today. I have two that did this. The first core is completely out of the jacket and the second one is almost all the way out. I thought that the first one might just be a defect but it appears it was not. I need to try loading some other bullets in this brass as soon as I have time to see what happens with them. I have several other brands so perhaps this is just a problem with the XTP's.
As far as the kinetic puller goes, I really would expect the plastic to break before a core separated from the jacket of a bullet. Must be some damn tough plastic!
rgold, sounds like a weird situation, although I can see how this could happen if the neck/bullet friction is high enough. Is the inside of that nickel brass very rough, in the area it contacts the bullet? (Might want to look at a bunch of them, you may only find a few that would stick the bullet like you've described.) I wouldn't be surprised if there were some quality control issue with either the brass or the bullets, given the mad rush by manufacturers lately to keep up with demand.
I have had this happen before on new brass that wasn't deburred/chamfered at all or fully. This is almost always the cause of something like this.
If the case has burrs or "teeth" at the mouth from the cutting process, these will bite into the jacket during crimping. It will be next to impossible to remove the jacket as it is being gripped by the case mouth burrs.
You really have to inspect new brass and chamfer the inside of the case mouth well to get all of those burrs off fully.
Would the results of firing a round like this be catastrophic?
Quote from: rgold1963 on May 29 2013 10:41:01 AM MDT
Would the results of firing a round like this be catastrophic?
Depends on how strong the bite is. Starline brass comes with the following warning, which is also on Midway's website "To ensure a round case mouth, cases must be sized (or have the expander ball of the sizing die run through case neck) and
deburred/Chamfered prior to loading." I made this error when I first started reloading, and thankfully never fired my first batch of 50 after I figured this out.
That is wild! The bullet should not come apart like that, they must have had an had an issue. The core didn't get swedged properly. Hornady has a inter ring to lock the cores inside, either the ring is missing in the jacket or the core didn't get struck to fill the jacket out.
(http://www.hornady.com/assets/images/products/bullets/cutouts/bullets-XTP-cutaway.jpg)
How was the bullet weight on those? Were they the proper weight? ???
I agree with Grim Reaper on this. My son just got started reloading and i gave him my old Dillon and some supplies. He didn't listen to me and forgot to chamferr the inside of the case mouth. I went to pull a bullet to check his powder charge and as hard as i tried i couldn't get that bullet out. This was a Montana gold FMJ so no hole for the lead to come out. I imagine if the mouth is gripping the jacket with a strong crimp that the lead could come out with enoigh hits of the kinetic puller. If there are enough burrs on the case mouth they will dig into the jacket and bite like a bear trap when crimped
Might be a good idea to contact Hornady about this. They may want to know and may want those bullets back for examination.
Comparing the regular and the nickel side by side, the mounts of the cases look identical and equally smooth. They measure exactly the same also. I loaded one of the nickel cases with a Nosler 150gr bullet and it did take more force than usual to get it out but it came out in one piece and there are only very slight rub marks on the jacket. No deep gouges or signs of heavy burs(which of course I would have been able to see inside the mouth)
I have some other caliber XTP's that just came in with these 10mm's so when I switch the press over to the next caliber, I will have to check and see if the core will come out on them as well.
You don't like your nickel plates I'll buy them off you. I love them!
Quote from: gandog56 on May 30 2013 06:49:29 AM MDT
You don't like your nickel plates I'll buy them off you. I love them!
I have plenty of other bullets I can load these with I was just trying to find out what might cause this issue with the XTP's. As soon as I have time I plan on loading some 150gr and possibly some 135's and running them over the chronograph along side the same bullets in regular brass cases to see if there is any difference from the added neck tension the nickel seems to have.
Ron
1st time I've seen it. For me at least it sure is a strange sight when never seeing it before.
This was posted over on the 1911 forum and it was postulated that the bullets are designed to have the force going into the target on the front of the bullet and not designed to have the "backwards" force exerted on them from a kinetic hammer. I believe that has merit and in conjunction with what Grim suggests about the nickel brass being tougher and having more of a bite I guess this doesn't seem so surprising.
I am going to try and get one of the jackets out but I will probably have to cut it out with a dremel. I imagine the base of the jacket is quite thick and solid so it's obviously not going to open up like the nose of the bullet which is exactly what we want.
I had a few minutes to work on this more today and I think I am going to adjust the powder die to bell the nickel case a bit more than the brass and see if that helps the situation. It doesn't appear to get quite as wide of a bell as the brass cases do which is what the powder die is set for right now.
Ron
If you're trying to save the brass, stick a primer in it and fire it (in a SAFE direction). It should exit the barrel, but it's easy enough to poke it out with a cleaning rod if it doesn't.
I loaded some of the 200gr XTP's into the brass Starline I have and just tested them. 8.6gr of power pistol, 1.260 OAL shot out of a G20 with a 6" KKM barrel. I only shot 5 rounds but the avg velocity is 1287 fps. The brass looks fine with no signs of over pressure at all. I still haven't decided if I will load any of these with the nickel cases or not. I might save the nickel for the 150 and 135gr Noslers I have. They are much shorter and don't seem to stick in the case nearly as much.
I am going to load more of the 200gr XTP's and see how they group later this week. When testing velocity I never bother to set up a target as I am more concerned with working up the load/safety.
If they do group well, this would be a great hunting load as well as an SD load. Considerably more energy than any .45acp load at any weight.
Ron
Thanks for the info. What primers did you use?
CCi 300 primers in these. I have some other brands but have not tried them yet. I think the CCI's are the hardest cup of what I have(Fed match, Win, Tula are the others) and they fire fine in both the G20 and G29 so I haven't bothered trying the others yet.
Thanks. Looking forward to your accuracy testing.
Forgot to ask; Did those Power Pistol loads burn clean?
They seem to be cleaner than the factory ammunition I have in the calibers I am using it in. 10mm, .45, and 9mm. I have been really happy with it and it meters very well in the Dillon powder measure which some powders don't work at all with. I also like that I get outstanding velocity with smaller charges than a lot of other powders so it's fairly economical and I only have to keep one powder on hand for all my pistol rounds.
Hoping to get out and shoot some targets tonight with the 200's and some 165gr golden sabers I loaded last week. The GS's are with 10gr of Power Pistol and average 1450fps. Same CCI primers.
Ron
Good to hear. I may have to try Power Pistol myself one of these days.
Both shot well through the 6" barrel. The 165's grouped a bit tighter but I really need to shoot more of both when it's not as late(I was pretty tired by the time I got out to shoot) and windy out. Both loads pack quite a punch and will work great for hunting and HD. I am thinking about getting a sight mount that will hold a small red dot for hunting season. Need to check WA regs first but I think it's legal for deer. Most of the deer hunting around here is close range because the brush is so thick and overgrown. I don't think I have ever had a shot over 100' and most have been under 50'.
I loaded a few test rounds of the 150gr Noslers tonight. Need to get the chrono out and test them in the next day or two. Used the Nickel brass with these and 10.6gr of Power Pistol. Should be around 1550 fps which ends up at 800ft-lbs KE. Probably won't have the wife shooting any of the 10mm loads. I did get her to shoot the .45 last night and she didn't like the recoil. I am going to be switching the press over to small primer soon and loading some 9mm for her that will be a bit more mild. She tolerates the loads I have right now but would prefer something a little less snappy.
Ron
Ran the 150gr Nosler JHP's over the chrono this afternoon. 10.6gr of power pistol, nickel starline brass, oal 1.252. 6" KKM barrel with the G20. Really consistent load. 1558 fps avg. Brass looks great with no signs of over pressure. Need to take some up and see how they group next.
Ron
Any plans to work up higher yet?
I don't really see any reason to push these past this point. As long as they are accurate at these velocities, I think they are right at the top end for their weight and a few more FPS won't really benefit anything. I have one more bullet to test(135gr sierra JHP) and then will have all the load data set for the rounds I plan to shoot with this gun. At some point when supplies become more available again, I may try some 180gr bullets but have plenty of everything that I have been loading recently so am in no hurry for that. Once I finish loading the 150's and 135's, I need to switch my press over to small primer and load a bunch of 9mm stuff for my wife to shoot. I am weaning her off the .22 as it's become more expensive to shoot than the 9mm lately and I want her to get comfortable with shooting the XDm.
Ron
I would add for anyone looking at this recipe that it is over book max.
Don't just duplicate it...work up slowly.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 10 2013 10:03:06 AM MDT
I would add for anyone looking at this recipe that it is over book max.
Don't just duplicate it...work up slowly.
Absolutely! I was not posting these for someone to just load up for the first time and fire them in their own weapon as that would be unsafe. What works well in mine might not be the same for someone else and I am using aftermarket barrels with much tighter chambers than the stock Glock barrels. I was simply posting my results as I reached what I felt was the maximum with the components used. For someone that wants to use similar bullet weights, cases, and powder, I recommend starting
at least 2gr lower than what I have listed here and even less if you are using a stock barrel and/or a different model of handgun.
Ron
Quote from: rgold1963 on June 10 2013 08:31:58 AM MDTI have one more bullet to test(135gr sierra JHP)
Ron
I've always wondered how well or not the Sierra 135s hold up compared to the Nosler counterpart.
I have both so I can load some of each. The sierra looks like it will expand more because the hollow point is larger and the cuts in the jacket are longer but I won't know for sure until I test them.
Ron
The Noslers, IMHO are right on the edge of coming apart at full 10mm velocity. I would worry that a more aggressive cavity would just give you bullet that fragments.
I will have to load both at the same velocity and test them to see what happens. Now to find the time.....
Ron
Shot a group of 10 of the 150's at 1550+ fps from 10yds. 5 of the 10 were touching and the other 5 were within 2 inches. This was just a quick test standing out in the front yard with a pretty strong breeze and the target moving a bit but so far, they seem to group every bit as good or better than the 165's and 200's I loaded earlier. I was shooting these out of the G29SF with a standard length KKM barrel. I put Dawson Precision adjustable fiber optic sights on this gun recently and they are my new favorites. Incredibly bright and really quick to acquire the target with.
135's up next......
Ron
Good to hear about the 150gr accuracy from a short barrel at a nice high velocity level.