I recently bought a (supposedly) new Kel-Tec Sub 2000 9mm. Once home I disassembled it for a good cleaning and lubrication, only to find a filthy barrel and extensive ware on the bolt assembly. The general manager of the shop assured me that it came that way from Kel-Tec, and is working with them on how to proceed. It?s almost like Kel-Tec had this just sitting around their factory used for break time target practice, and was accidentally shipped out as new. The response from the shop manager regarding the filthy barrel was, you know Ken, they do test fire these at the factory. I told him, absolutely, but not enough to gunk up the barrel to that degree, let alone the ware on the bolt assembly. My hope is that they will just send out a brand spanking new one once they get this one back.
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It just kinda ticks me off, plus the bore mops were brand new when I started cleaning the barrel. When you buy something new, it should be just that, new
Test fired for function
Hey Wade, that?s what I thought also, but that?s a lot of crud in the barrel for just a few rd?s, even if it was some really cheap dirty ammo. It just seems odd
I bought the gun new in 1978, still in the box never fired.
Or
Shot two mags, then put in the closet until I came across it the other day and decided to sell it.
or
untested.
*That way when you take it home and it won't fire a single mag without a malfunction, it wasn't the sellers fault.
I heard that all the time when I had a gun store.
It?s just weird to buy something new and have that much crud in the barrel. I?m sure it?s just fine, and depending on what Kel-Tec?s response is, I?ll get over it just fine, I guess it?s more of a principle thing than anything else
Fouling doesn't bother me in the least.
I used to be really anal about keeping my guns spotless and as near NIB as I could, until the last few years. Now I clean them occasionally. I guess I've just gotten crotchety.
I?ve just never bought a brand new weapon that was this dirty. Most all will have a small amount from test firing, but nothing like this
Doesn't bother me at all, and here is why.
I want the gun tested before it is sold to me as functional. Ideally that test is more than 2-3 rounds. A full magazine would be great.
I want a good price. I own a bunch of AR-15's and there is not a Daniel Defense, nor any other "top" tier gun in that mix. I buy budget, and usually only when it is on sale.
I want the actual firearm to be in "new" condition. Fouling from required test firing doesn't detract from that for me.
But, the kind of employee they could afford to clean the gun at the price I want to pay is not likely to care very much on his 97th gun cleaning of the day. I would rather get a fouled gun in proper condition than a clean gun with a dinged muzzle. Improper cleaning technique can definitely damage the gun.
So, fouled is fine with me at the prices I pay. Kel-Tec is definitely a "budget" option, so this doesn't surprise me much, and I would be equally, perhaps even more, concerned if a budget gun did arrive spotless. That would suggest that it either wasn't tested or it was questionably cleaned.
Hi Ken. Not the first time I've seen that sort of thing. It may have not run properly during testing and required some tweaking. It may have been fired more than usual for some other reason.
Like a car that is "new" until it is titled to the first owner, guns are "new" until they've been sold to the retail customer. Most cars have less than 10 miles when you buy them, some have a couple of hundred because they were pulled out and run around a track for QC evaluation.
Like Sqlbullet, I too have purchased some budget ARs and one had an absolutely filthy barrel. Had to flood it with bore cleaner and bronze brush it for half an hour to get it clean. Runs like a champ and had good accuracy. I would have been much less happy if it didn't run.
Good luck with yours. Just my opinion but anything from Kel-Tec is a crapshoot. If this one runs perfectly, keep it.
Thanks guys, I think my perspective was a little whacked. It?s not like I spent $2,500 on something from JP Enterprises. The good part is it will likely run just fine, and if not, it?s been documented from the start
I have to say, after working with Kel-Tec?s customer service on this, I?m pretty impressed. The Sub 2000 is on its way back to the factory, what they will do or replace, if anything, I have no idea, but will feel better knowing they have looked at it. Either way, it should be a fun little carbine
Per the Tech?s notes that were emailed to me earlier today, this is what they did. Glad I sent it in, and should be back to me in 4 or 5 days 😀
Hello Ken,
Here is what the technician has put for what all was done.
-De-burred & cleaned Bolt Tube/Receiver and replaced damaged Bolt
-Replaced Barrel Assembly (hand-picked from newest production batch)
-Proofed & test fired
- +1 complimentary 15rd Magazine
I'm going to side with Ken on this one. When I buy something new I will do the breaking in.
Depending on how much business you did with the vendor I would have reconciled with an hour of range time or a box of ammo.
It looked to me like it was shot prior. I own three of these and that was ridden hard and put away wet.
Keltec service has always been good, I knew they would help you out.
Mine is in .40sw, my only gripe is the height on the sights. Other than that I love it.
What a fun project, between the M*Carbo upgrades, Red Lion folding front sight, and the optic, it?s gotten really expensive really fast for what it is, but that?s ok I guess, plus it?s such a fun weapon to shoot 😀
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Hey Current Resident, any issues with your feed ramp? Being plastic, it kind of concerns me a bit
:-I just love mine in .40sw. The only upgrade mine has seen is a $20.00 laser and a Bushnell optic. It's never had a factory round shot through it. Sometimes I get a surprise with my cheek on the stock and the recoil gives me a bit of a slap. The lighter the round it seems the harder the recoil. I really enjoy mine.
Ken, sorry I didn't see your reply, no not one single issue with any type feeding or function.
The only thing that ever stopped me was one of my reloads got stuck in the chamber. It was a live round, and the pucker factor was elevated as I worked with an RSO on the range trying to get it unstuck.
With the muzzle pointed downrange, we inserted a pie e of brass round stock through the muzzle and thumped it with a hammer.
I believe that the problem was that the case mouth didn't have enough crimp. From that point on I bought FCD from Lee in most of my calibers and not had a problem since.
Evening Current Resident, a few things that really helped mitigate recoil that shouldn?t have been there in the first place are from Missouri Tactical, and found on Amazon, their rubber butt pad - $21.00, and their Buffer Washer, looks like a rubber lifesaver that slides onto the recoil spring for something like $12.00. The final thing to help with it?s straight blow-back system is M*Carbo?s Recoilless weighted / tool - less charging handle. The combination of the 3 things made a night and day difference, and is so much more fun to shoot now. I haven?t shot a lot of blow back PCC?s other than my 1095TS 10mm, which has a shock absorption system built into the butt pad, but has substantially less recoil than the Sub in my opinion. It?s kind of funny, I?ve never thought of a 9 as having much for recoil after shooting lots of .45?s and 10?s over the years, but the Kel-Tec design changed that thought process
https://www.mcarbo.com/kel-tec-sub-2000-recoilless-charging-handle.aspx
It may be that all blow back PCC?s have noticeably more felt recoil, I don?t know, but the combination of Kel-Tec?s hard and sharply shaped butt stock, and metal buffer tube riding on or very close to your cheek are much of its problem
Quote from: Kenk on April 01 2023 10:29:05 PM MDT
Evening Current Resident, a few things that really helped mitigate recoil that shouldn?t have been there in the first place are from Missouri Tactical, and found on Amazon, their rubber butt pad - $21.00, and their Buffer Washer, looks like a rubber lifesaver that slides onto the recoil spring for something like $12.00. The final thing to help with it?s straight blow-back system is M*Carbo?s Recoilless weighted / tool - less charging handle. The combination of the 3 things made a night and day difference, and is so much more fun to shoot now. I haven?t shot a lot of blow back PCC?s other than my 1095TS 10mm, which has a shock absorption system built into the butt pad, but has substantially less recoil than the Sub in my opinion. It?s kind of funny, I?ve never thought of a 9 as having much for recoil after shooting lots of .45?s and 10?s over the years, but the Kel-Tec design changed that thought process
https://www.mcarbo.com/kel-tec-sub-2000-recoilless-charging-handle.aspx
My trade is Fabrication and Professional Tinkerer. Like yourself I enjoy a challenge and project.
What I did leave out in my post yesterday was that I did put a buffer in it as well as I made a wrap and put it on the receiver tube. The wrap is not pretty, custom cut foam padding set in place with electrical tape. I tried different thickness trying to get an optimal cheek weld, I ended up with a standard 1/8" foam because anything thicker makes it difficult to use the OEM sights.
As far the the buffer, I used a yellow garden hose washer that fit the opening well enough and haven't had a single issue with it.
Last thing I did was tape up the seams on the buttstock because I have a short beard and getting pinched isn't fun.
Glock 22 round mags makes range outings fun and interesting. .40sw rocks and makes me very happy.
Safe shooting everyone.
So is the increased recoil on small calibers like 9mm common on most of these blow back carbines, or is it just a Kel-Tec design thing?
Blowback generally tends to have more recoil.
However, if it's tuned properly, isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. When I shoot PCC's, I generally shoot several hundred rounds at a time and enjoy every bit of it.
Thanks John, I was hoping you'd chime in, after changing up a few things, the Sub is a lot of fun, unlike in it?s original factory configuration
Quote from: John A. on April 04 2023 04:26:34 PM MDT
Blowback generally tends to have more recoil.
However, if it's tuned properly, isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. When I shoot PCC's, I generally shoot several hundred rounds at a time and enjoy every bit of it.
I concur. There's always a bit more felt recoil from recoil operated guns than gas guns. My gas op 10mm AR recoils less than my 9mm JRC recoil operated carbine. Neither are punishing to shoot. It's just the nature of the beast.
Thanks Graybeard, How do you like the JRC 9mm? The prices on them look very reasonable
I hand some jamming issues with mine when I switched it to left side ejection. Pretty easily resolved. It runs well now and I like the fact it uses my M&P magazines. It's a pain to do a thorough cleaning, though. One of the few guns that can be completely switched from righty to lefty was what attracted me to it.
They don't pay for return shipping on warranty issues, but they do answer their phones and I was talking to a tech in about a minute when I called. I had to file a little off of an internal radius on the ejector plate to solve the jamming problem. He offered to send me another for free if I screwed it up.
Kind of a mixed bag really. Customer service was both poor and excellent. Tough to clean, but very customizable without any add ons.
Thanks, that?s great stuff to know in advance
Have a Blessed Easter
Ken
So they would be willing to switch the ejection port for a lefty if I was willing to pay, correct? That would have been ideal with the Sub 2000, but the brass deflector seems to work ok, drops the brass right at my feet
Quote from: Kenk on April 06 2023 05:29:36 PM MDT
So they would be willing to switch the ejection port for a lefty if I was willing to pay, correct? That would have been ideal with the Sub 2000, but the brass deflector seems to work ok, drops the brass right at my feet
Really, the brass drops at your feet???
I've seen those in the past but never heard anyone review the brass deflector.
I've thought in the past to make one out of ABS and use a foam 2 way tape to adhere it. Maybe I will do that sometime soon.
Quote from: Kenk on April 06 2023 05:29:36 PM MDT
So they would be willing to switch the ejection port for a lefty if I was willing to pay, correct? That would have been ideal with the Sub 2000, but the brass deflector seems to work ok, drops the brass right at my feet
Assuming this question was about the JRC. It's convertible from right to left handed by the user. The bolt has to be removed and extractor switched to the other side. Then the ejector plate is switched to the other side and it's then left side eject. The bolt handle can be switched, too. There are slot cuts in the receiver for it on both sides.
Yep, about the JRC, Thanks Graybeard!