10mm-Auto

I am experiencing numerous failures to feed with a Gen 4 Glock 20 with Underwood 180gr TMJ. I initially experienced it with the stock springs. I expected that may happen with the 17lb stock springs. I purchased a tungsten guide rod with 22lb springs & adapter [http://www.glockstore.com/gen-4-specific-parts/gen4-recoil-assembly-adapter-ring] to use with the Gen 4. I am still experiencing the same FTFs. The issue may even be aggravated with the tungsten guide rod. The base of the tungsten guide rod has a much smaller diameter than the stock Gen 4 guide rod and does not seem to fit in the circular cutout of the barrel as well as the stock gen 4 guide rod. Each time I removed the slide, the tungsten guide rod was not in place, it had slid of the the circular cutout. Whereas, when I remove the slide when using the stock guide rod, it would be in the correct position. I'm wondering if it is moving under recoil & causing the FTF. Is this possible?

The type of FTFs that I'm experiencing are varying from the slide locked back all the way, partially locked back, the nose of the bullet lodged to high & preventing proper feed in the chamber, and nose of the bullet lodged to low against the feed ramp.

The gun has worked flawlessly with the stock guide rod & low velocity Federal American Eagle 180gr fmj. I did not have enough of that ammo left to try a good sample with the tungsten guide rod with 22lb springs.

Anyone have experience using a steel or tungsten gen 3 type guide rod with an adapter on a Gen 4?

Anyone have suggestions? I will be calling the Glockstore also to see if they have any suggestions.

If I can't find a solution, I will have 769 rounds of Underwood 180gr TMJ to sell :(

I will take them. Runs great in all 4 of my 10's.

Might have a bad part issue with the Tungsten Rod or design issue.I use the steel guide rod and various springs from Wolff with the rod on my Gen3.But the kicker is why the hicups with the stock setup.Underwoods 180's are stock proven as tests are done with stock set up.Also various You Tube demos are stock setup.

pacapcop, I have seen it work well with the Gen 3 Glock 20 with stock guide rods. But, I have not seen it used with the Gen 4. Have you? Might be a Gen 4 issue with the springs or something else in my gun?

Intercooler, thought you might. If it doesn't look like a quick fix I will let you know. Thanks.

I could trade you American Eagle boxes too.

DavidF,Go to You Tube. Gen4 Glock 20 HD Reviews:The Gen4 10mm Delivers

It's all stock, shooting Underwood,CCI and another factory round.

Intercooler, that will work. I'll PM you with my number.

pacapcop, thank you. I will review that video.

After watching that video from Mrgunsngear & his review of the Gen 4 Glock 19, I will call Glock's customer support tomorrow. It may very well be a specific issue with mine.

Im thinking it has to be.If anything,Glock will make it right.

I called Glock this morning & spoke with one of their technical support guys. He asked me if I wanted to ship it back & they would look at it & test fire. But, here's the catch. They don't recommend hotter loads such as Buffalo Bore, so Underwood would be out of the question.  Therefore, they would not be testing it with heavy loads. He recommended that I try some medium level loads which I will do before shipping it back & try to get an idea of what level it stops functioning. The gun range I go to had some PMC 170gr so that will be good to try. If it has FTFs with that, then I'll be confident that they can find the issue.

I wrote a letter to Wolff Gun Springs the other day an they are not producing springs for the Gen4 Glocks as of yet.
They may in the near future...Customer Service <CustomerService@gunsprings.com>

QuoteSorry Sir, at this time we do not offer guide rods or recoil springs for Gen4 Glock pistols. I will pass along your request and save your email to alert you when these product become available.

Regards,
John Andrews
Wolff Gunsprings

The Shadow,

Thanks, I called Wolff before buying from the Glockstore. That was going to be my first choice. But, they seemed rather uninterested. I was hoping that they could at least do a simple adapter like Lone Wolf & Glockstore do.

I just spoke to an armorer at the Glockstore & he was pretty perplexed with the issue, particularly that it did not improve with the heavier springs.

He was also perplexed about the trigger connector on my G20 being different that the 5.5lb connectors that came on my G17 & G26 as well as different than the 4.5 (used to be called 3.5lb) connector found on the G34 & G35. Installing the 4.5lb connector actually made it much worse, so I put the stock connector back in.  It is a very sweet trigger on this G20, so if I send it back to Glock & they replace the gun, I hope it is not worse!

Glock stating no hot loads.Is the Gen 4 suffering new car model syndrome.

Maybe, based on mine. But the Glock rep was referring to all Glock 20's, not just Gen 4's.

David, I think that there is probably something wrong with your particular pistol OR the Underwood rounds you have. You are the first person I've heard of having problems running Underwood in a Gen 4 G20.  Mrgunsngear on YouTube runs several Underwood rounds in his Gen 4 review and Underwood 155 chrono session.  Others have been running heavy handloads etc. in the Gen 4 G20 without trouble. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM680dIT1UQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM680dIT1UQ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9W_ZF0-B_4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9W_ZF0-B_4)

   We are going to do a swap of some American Eagle and PBR if he agrees to see if that makes any difference. I always wish I could see a video on some of these to see what is going on.

David,Glock Rep is full of it IMHO.I would not expect a Glock Rep to state there is issues with are Gen 4.Plenty of Glocks that work,esp the Gen 3's and 2's.Again my guess the Gen 4's being newer model are suffering new model syndrome.That's fine,let them correct it or refund it.Plenty of Gen 3's around.

Now hold on Intercooler.Just because you got promoted does not give you first shot at all that ammo. I am sure I have some low power load that old G4 Glock might shoot. My old G3 has shot all of them from a G20,G20SF,and G29 from lame to flame. Never a flinch. Of course it might be my skills as a shooter. LMAO !!!

Too late RRMan03, it has already been shipped to Intercooler!

pacapcop, I think you are right. I will try the PBR and see if I get any better results. I may take it to a local gun shop that has a Glock armorer & ask if he would be willing to test it & see what he thinks before sending it back to Glock. I would like to get a better idea of what velocity/recoil it begins to fail at before sending it back to them. The one really good thing about the gun is that it has the best trigger of any Glock I've tried. But, if it doesn't function with anything but the weakest 10mm loads, then I might as well have bought another 9mm.

I don't think it is the ammo as I've visually & roll inspected each case in my hand including the ones that I have had FTF issues with. I've also measured a pretty large sample for OAL & width & nothing stood out as an issue to me.  In fact, Underwood's ammo had tighter tolerances (or less variation) in a sample of over 70 rounds from 20 boxes than the Federal American Eagles with a sample size of only 5.

As Intercooler mentioned above, he generously agreed to swap some ammunition with me. Although I don't think he'll have an issue with the ammo I've sent him, It will be good to confirm that it is not an ammo issue but actually an issue with my gun.

A glock that doesn't eat anything?  That is a gun issue.

I suggest you check the GSSF calendar for an event near you.  They will have a Glock armorer on site.  He should be able to diagnose and resolve any issue you have on the spot.

That's interesting you can get on the spot help.

sqlbullet,

Thanks. Good idea. Don't see anything very close until November, St. Augustine, FL.  Couple in Georgia, but a bit of a drive. I may go over to St Augustine just to see the event.

Odd question here. Do you have a small cell camera or video recorder you can take a video of it in action? We may be able to tell a decent amount off of that.

I had similar problems with a fairly recent batch of Underwood 180 grain FMJ in my Gen 3 20SF.

4949shooter, what was the release date/purchase date? Wonder if it was the same lot? I believe I ordered mine on Mar 21, I have my receipt at my office.

Intercooler, my wife has a small camera with a video function. But not very good quality at all. I could try. Probably won't be at the range until next Sunday.

David, the purchase date on mine was January 20th.

I spoke to Kevin about the ammo. If I put some through mine with no issues does that rule it out?

The inconsistency of the failure type seems to me to indicated something other than a consistent cause like out of spec ammo size.

I hate to ask, but do you have a good grip on the gun?  The types of erratic failures you describe could be due to "limp wristing" full power loads.

I believe so, but I don't have experience shooting heavy autos. Lots through 44 mag revolvers, 9mm autos, & 45 autos.  I'm not as good with recoil control as say Tnoutdoors9 on his videos firing the same load through his Glock 20. Probably more like Larry Vickers if you have seen him on TacTV firing a Glock 20 at long  range.

Intercooler, yes if it functions fine in you gun then it is definitely not the ammo. I don't believe it is with the variety of FTFs I've had. The shipment will be there today, so I'll be anxious to see how it works.

sqlbullet,  no I have no issue with you raising that question. I have not had any issues with FTF with any of the other autos I've used with the exception of a magazine issue on an old WWII surplus 1911 and loads that were too light with my Glock 9mms (loads like the 115gr Federal & even lighter reloads that seem to be a common problem). And, not with my Glock 20 with light loads. I thought that if someone limpwrists too much, it is more likely to cause malfunctions at lighter loads than heavy loads. Is that correct, or could it cause problems on the other end of the sprectrum with very heavy loads?

Yes...

My line of thinking was that maybe if there was a grip issue combined with extra recoil  your hands might be shifting enough to rub the slide or push on the slide stop slowing the slide down prematurely.  This is different than the typical limp-wrist scenario, but was a thought that ran through my mind.

sqlbullet, I think that you are on to something.  I think that you should definitely check to make sure that you aren't "riding" the slide or slide stop with your fingers. 

As far as limp wristing goes, a "limp wrist" malfunction is actually less likely to occur with high power ammo. 

I would also be looking at the gun.  When you cycle it slowly by hand does it seem normal?  Does the extractor grab and hold the bullet fairly tight against the breech face? 

Just some thoughts that I had.

You all are thinking along the same lines that I was while at the range. I tried different hand positions from thumbs higher to lower to make sure I wasn't hitting the slide stop or dragging thumbs along the slide, etc. Nothing seemed to help.

When I cycle it slowly it does appear normal. I'll take another look when I get home. I'll specifically look at the extractor. The only thing different from other Glocks is that the ejector sits a bit high & gouges the slide cover plate during reassembly.

Quote from: DAVIDF on May 03 2013 11:30:15 AM MDT
\ The only thing different from other Glocks is that the ejector sits a bit high & gouges the slide cover plate during reassembly.

That's normal for the G20.  If you pull up on the slide a little bit when you reach the ejector it will go on smoothly.  Took me a minute the first time I took the slide off my G20 to figure out what was going on!

Thanks, good to know. Glock rep was not alarmed at that. Even if I pull it up, it still gouges the slide cover slightly. Whereas my 17 & 26 clear it with no problem.

All the ammo arrived today! I took the boxes out and looked them over... pretty  ;D


I see you had a couple marked with length. Are those the ones you want me to shoot some from? I think I can fit it in tomorrow morning. Do you want me to run a special 10 or video any of it?

I don't know if limpwristing is the cause with these 10mm Glocks.

Assuming the ammo isn't the problem, when I let my wrist flex a little the gun worked better with the Underwood. When I tightened up my wrist the gun malfunctioned more.

And I shot a lot of Underwood 200 grain XTP one handed (read more wrist flex). The XTP never malfunctioned when fired one handed. This makes me believe the slide is hitting the polymer frame too hard causing malfunctions when fired two handed (read tighter wrist and less flex). It's just an opinion I have now, but this condition may be increased by whichever level Kevin is loading the 180 grain tmj to. The 200 XTP worked a lot better than the 180 grain with a two handed hold.

This condition still may be exacerbated by the ammo.

Edit: There was a member over on Glocktalk who had a similar problem and brought this to my attention.

Headed out in about 30 minutes to test them out.

Sounds good we'll be waiting!

Intercooler, any of them will do. The boxes that had oal listed on them were a couple thousandths longer than the others so I marked them. There were 2 boxes I believe that were like that. One box of the longer ones worked well with the stock springs, however, I only fired about 20 rounds or so. I had issues with the same box when I tried it with the tungsten guide rod & 22 pound springs. All the other boxes I tried were problems with both sets of springs.

   Always need another excuse to enjoy a weather perfect day shooting some ammo up!  :D I took those two marked boxes with me for the testing. I figured you had measured them and knew what they were. To start off I warmed up with American Eagle all four 10mm's (Dan Wesson Razorback, EAA Witness Hunter, EAA Witness Match, S&W 1006). All shot perfect with no issues and the Witness pistols are using the red follower magazines which some folks have issues with. Now the battery of tests:

Razorback 1.244-1.247 5 rounds. No malfunctions
Match 1.244-1.247 5 rounds. No malfunctions
Match 1.245 5 rounds. No malfunctions
Hunter 1.244-1.247 5 rounds. No malfunctions
Hunter 1.245 5 rounds. No malfunctions
Razorback 1.244-1.247 5 rounds. No malfunctions. I ran 2 more trying to be a total limp wrist and both malfunctioned angled down needing me to tap the slide forward. This pistol is still tight and lightest which is the best to induce this and it worked!
Razorback 1.245 5 rounds. No malfunctions
1006 1.244-1.247 5 rounds. No malfunctions
1006 1.245 5 rounds. No malfunctions
Hunter 1.245 5 rounds. No malfunctions

   I personally look at ammo as if it is within spec it should run. Some pistols are more sensitive to the dimensions I'm sure. Next on the list is am I doing anything wrong? If no, then start digging into the pistol looking for stuff. If I had to guess the ammo you have coming your way won't fix the issue and hope to hear your results.

Thanks for posting your results, IC.

David, I would be curious to know if your Glock will work with the hotter ammo when fired one handed.

Thanks Intercooler, I didn't expect you to have any issues. I'll try the ammo you're sending as well as some PMC or Armscor. From that, I will get an idea of where it begins to malfunction.

4949shooter, yes I will try & let you know.

Went to the range today with the ammo that Intercooler swapped with me plus bought some PMC 170 gr HP. Intercooler sent me American Eagle 180gr fmj, PBR 165 & 200 gr fmj, & Underwood 180 gr fmj Delta lite loads. I also again tried a few of the Underwood 180gr TMJ.

I tried all of the loads with both the stock springs & a Glockstore tungsten guide rod w/22lb springs.  I  went in order with what I believed were the lightest to the hottest (American Eagle, PMC, Underwood 180gr Delta Lite, PBR 165gr, Underwood 180gr TMJ, PBR 200gr).

The results were pretty close to what I expected, perhaps a bit better. The American Eagle, PMC, & the Underwood Delta Lite loads all functioned flawlessly. I was particularly happy with the Underwood Deltas. They may be the most accurate semi-auto handgun round that I have used in any pistol. These are one hole groups in my pistol as long as I do my job, which doesn't always happen ::)

At the next level something interesting began to happen. With the PBR 165gr they functioned flawlessly as far as feeding, but almost always locked the slide back when one round was left in the magazine. Happened with at least 2 of my 3 magazines. I failed to keep track of whether it occurred in the 3rd. This also happened consistently with the heavier loads. I kept my thumb well away from the slide stop so I don't believe it was my hand hitting it under recoil.

The Underwood 180gr TMJs still gave me consistent problems with failing to feed. Every failure was with nose of the bullet lodged high at the top of the chamber. Again, the stock springs actually worked slightly better than the tungsten guide rod with 22lb springs. This load is the second most accurate load behind the Deltas.

Finally, the PBR 200gr FMJs were the worst. Pretty consistently failing to feed with the nose of the bullet again lodged high at the top of the chamber.

I'm happy that at least the Underwood Delta Lites worked good & were extremely accurate. This is about the level I would like to handload once components become more readily available. But, I will probably call Glock on Monday & ask them to take a look at it. Although they don't recommend loads as hot as Buffalo Bore (they didn't list Underwood by name) I haven't seen other Glock 20s have these issues.

Intercooler, thank you again for swapping ammo with me. This has been extremely helpful to me & it was really great getting to try these various loads when it is so tough to acquire a variety of ammo.

David, is there any chance that your new recoil spring is binding when the slide is to the rear?  Reason I ask is that I had my G20 lock back several times with the Wolf 22 lb spring... I think that it may be too long and may need a few coils trimmed from it.  Never had any problems except for with this spring.  The gun didn't jam but it did lock back with rounds left in the mag and I have never had that happen to me shooting this gun or any of my other guns before. I thought that maybe I was riding it with my thumb but it happened a few more times so I swapped out that spring. 

My G20 has run flawless except for with the Wolf 22 lb. spring, with the factory spring I have had no malfunctions shooting Underwood 165 & 180 HP & TMJ, PMC 200 gr., & 40 S&W 180 gr in stock bbl.  I have shot one handed, weak and strong hand, etc. and have had no malfunctions yet (~500 rounds).  My wife shot the gun (she is 5'4") and although she didn't really care for the recoil she also didn't have any malfunctions.

I still think that there is something wrong with your gun, it shouldn't be having problems even with the hotter rounds. 

Maybe, I do seem to actually have more problems with it than with the stock. Plus, this is a Gen 4 I have. I use an adapter sold by Glockstore (that fits in the end of the slide)  to allow the use of a Gen 3 type guide rod. Maybe this is causing some binding as the adapter is thicker (from front to back) than the normal slot at the front of the slide of a Gen 3 or Gen 4. It works perfectly with lighter loads, even the very light American Eagle.

I agree, I think there is something wrong with my particular gun.

   Good info and glad I could help. Other than the jamming issues how did you like the PBR?


    Could be your spring setup but I am leaning more towards the mags when you are having slide lock-back problems. Anyone around you have a perfect functioning G20 Gen4 you can swap the mags with? Do you have a light spring you can try? When I went down to an 11lb spring in my Match shooting the hot stuff no change in function.
     It appears ammo isn't really the problem other than the heavy loads are smoking out a pistol issue. If it's every round of the strong stuff I bet mags.

I initially thought mags as well but what are the odds of getting multiple new magazines that have weak springs/are otherwise defective?  Possible but not likely. 

My Gen3 G20SF also has the "bump" trigger bar from the Gen4.  No problems (FYI my Gen 4 G17 also has no problems). 

Interference (internal or external), frame battering or a weak slide catch spring is more likely than the magazine, especially if it happens with more than one mag.  Have a look at the slide stop.  If it looks all beat up, especially on a "new" pistol, it may be an issue with a too light RSA.

The ejector also plays a part.  If it's bent too far down or inward, the loaded rounds will drag along it, then spring up once clear (check the ejected brass for a scratch along the case wall).  The ejector should be parallel with a round in the mag, but not touching with any pressure when the mag is pushed up firmly.  It should also not contact the cover when the slide is installed, although a lot of them do (and Glock says not abnormal).  Every Glock I've had since 1992 required some adjustment.

Also, if you can lock back the slide (obviously, you can), the RSA length shouldn't be an issue.  Remove the spring, reassemble, and pull it back.  Note the stop location (pencil mark helps).  Reinstall the spring and repeat.  It should pull back the same.  If it doesn't, you have an RSA interference.  This is pretty much eliminated as a problem, unless it happens with more than one type of ammo.  The slide distance vs. spring rate just isn't that narrow of a window.  They should (almost) all slide fully.  The only variations are the velocity, and force on contact.  The DE Lite and PRVI rounds might be the exception.  I can only force a "short cycle" with a 24# spring and .40SW rounds (although they've never failed to fire reliably).  I suspect PRVI rounds are lighter than standard .40SW, while the DE Lite's may be close.  American Eagle (the lightest 10mm rounds I've fired) will cycle fully, even with a 24# spring.  If you must see if it is in fact fully cycling, place a smear of grease on each side of the stop, assemble and carefully cycle in a round (without pulling fully rear), and fire.  Disassemble and inspect.  If grease is transfered to the slide, it's fully cycling.  If not, something is holding it short.

I am racking my brain as are you all about the issue DAVIDF is seeing.

Just as the trigger bar adds friction to the trigger pull, it is also dragging on the inside of the slide...however is that the culprit to poor feeding with higher impulse ammo?  I don't think so.  The increased slide velocity is to the rear due to the higher impulse ammo, thus as the slide returns to strip a fresh round, the rear of the cartridge is not sliding up the breech face properly to allow it tip over fully to enter the chamber. 

What are we actually seeing...the slide is accelerated to the rear, dragging the spent case out of the chamber, that case hits the ejector to be knocked off the extractor, then the slide travels further rearward, precocking the striker (this is where that trigger bar would exert the most pressure because of that bump), rebounding via the recoil system to strip the next round from the magazine with the forward momentum.  That round is binding without tipping fully into the chamber...Why?

Is that trigger bar bump pushing the slide over too much to allow rounds to slide into place?
Look for a burr or something on the underside of the slide on the raised section that pushes the fresh round to chamber.
Inspect the breech face for roughness, that could be adding drag to hamper cartridge case from sliding up into place.
Inspect the barrel hood for roughness where the cartridge case rides to the chamber.
With the new cut of the Gen4 for the redesigned recoil System, it there something dragging not letting the barrel to rise up into battery in relation to the locking block?

Anyway these are the things I am running over and over in my brain, thinking of a fix, it could be a dangerous situation!  :o  ::)

ps.  When you place a loaded magazine in the frame, Do you slam it home?  Sharp rap upward with the palm of your hand.
Do you seat all the rounds to the rear of the magazine by rapping the flab back side against the palm of your hand?

Intercooler, accuracy was good with the PBR but not as good as the Underwood. Nothing from a rest so it wasn't a precise test. PBR seems to be using a dirtier burning powder as well. That is not an issue with me, just an observation. Don't know if the accuracy difference is because this barrel does better with TMJ vs other brands FMJ? Was Underwood using Speer TMJ with the Delta Lite? I know the bullet had a different shape than the current 10mm TMJ but I don't know if Speer changed the design slightly. Overall, I think the PBR is excellent especially considering their price.

Also, no one I know owns a Glock 20.

I don't think it is the RSA at least with the stock springs as far as length. Maybe too light with the stock springs. The slide stop spring seems about the same as my other Glocks, but then they are 9mm and have not been subjected to this type of recoil.

No marks on the spent cases from the ejector.

I'll dissasemble today & look at the how the trigger bar is dragging on the inside of the slide. I would guess that is not the issue as this trigger is the best I've felt on any Glock. I'll look at the top of the barrel hood & breech face. I've looked carefully at how the barrel rises up into battery & seems within spec to me.

Magazine is slammed home good. Don't normally rap the back side, but I load it the way I do all my others making sure that the rounds are fully seated to the rear. Under recoil would they stay in that position anyways? The magazine follower on these are not the full length of the magazine like they are with the 9mm. Is this a change from the Gen 3s?

   Those were FMJ round nosed as opposed to TMJ's with the flat points. Those are early and what Kevin based the Delta-Lite TMJ's now offered by him. Possibly #9 gives more residue than the 800-X Kevin uses.

Kevin offers a Delta lite fmj? I thought it was just Gold Dots..

The Gold Dots is what he has listed now. These were older loads that Intercooler sent me. I talked to Kevein a few weeks back asking him if he could load more of the Delta Elite with whatever bullets he had available. But he seemed reluctant. I guess the max loads sell too well ::)

And, as far as the residue from the PBR loads, wasn't extreme. And, not a lot of residue in my gun. Just more than the other loads. I handload 44 mag with Unique & it works quite well. Unique leaves way more residue than what PBR is using.

I thoroughly cleaned my gun & examined where the trigger bar rubs the frame. Didn't notice any marks, nothing unusual. Slide stop is showing normal wear for the number of rounds. Barrel hood & breech face look very good to an amateur.

DAVIDF, not being there with you to help solve this puzzle makes for speculations...
One other thing I was thinking of is, are the rounds in the magazine sliding forward under the heavier recoil impulse?
Thinking about a cartridge that is already forward as the slide kicks it, that they are standing upward instead of riding up the feed ramp to full chamber.  I would check between shots by pulling the magazine out to inspect after every shot to see.  ???

My G20SF had has similar problems. I am working on tweaking it with springs.

I do think the ammo is part of the problem.

The_Shadow, yes very well could be. I'm speculating too as I am no gunsmith. I question the design of the follower as it is different than my other Glocks & can bind easier.

I just read 2 posts on different forums. In 1 of them, someone was having FTF with their Glock 20 Gen 3 with hot loads where the nose of the bullet would get lodged against the top of the barrel hood. Someone chimed in that he had the same problem, replaced the magazine follower & the issue was resolved.

On another posting, someone had an issue with 2 of their 3  Glock 20 Gen 4 magazines locking the slide back while there was a 1 round still in the magazine. Someone else added that they had the same problem with the magazines in their Glock 20 Gen 4.

More questions to ask Glock tomorrow!

I will be interested to hear what Glock has to say about this. It really seems to be a "gun specific" problem.

There was a thread on Glocktalk in the 10mm forum around two years ago where the OP's Gen 3 20SF exhibited the same or similar issues. He ended up trading it in to Glock for a G19 because the problem was never rectified. His may have been worse than yours though.

Good luck!

Just talked to a Glock rep.  As soon as I described what is going on he said he will send me a new recoil spring & suggested that I send him my 3 magazines to be replaced. Start with this & see if it fixes the issue.

Also asked him about the trigger connector being different than both the connectors in Glock 17 (5.5lb connector) & Glock 34 (4.5lb connector). He said it is a 5lb connector. First person I've been able to talk to who knew there is a difference. I like the connector a lot, much better than the 4.5 lb connectors that I have installed in my 17 & 26. I'll see if I can find them anywhere to order.

Thanks to everyone for your help. Once I receive the new magazines & spring I'll let you know how it works. Hopefully, that is all that is wrong.

I guess that you're talking about the "." (dot) connector.  It is indeed in between the normal and "-" connector.  My Gen4 G17 also has one and it is nice, a slightly lighter trigger without feeling "mushy" like the "-".   You can only order one right now if you have a serial number from a gun that was mfg. with the connector (i.e. Gen4). 

Yes, he referred to it as dot connector. My 17 & 26 are Gen 4's, but don't have the same connector.

You should be able to get some dot connectors for them then.  You must have "earlier" Gen4 guns... the initial Gen4s came with the regular connector but Glock later switched them to the dot connector.  The Gen4 with a standard connector is ~1lb. heavier than a Gen3 with the same connector due to the difference in angle of the connector (which is due to the narrower trigger housing due to the change in backstrap). The "dot" connector puts them back closer to the same pull weight as a Gen3. 

Hey guys, just found this site. I've been over at glock talk for a few years now. My 20sf has at least 20k through it since I got it 3 years ago. I've shot boat loads of nosler 135's at 1500fps and lots of 200gr BT hard cast at 1230fps. The gun never gives me problems with the stock RSA. I while back I was having some feeding problems with 155gr SWC in a .40 conv, I upgraded to some wolf +10 mag springs and all was good. So I thought. I went back to my 200gr BT and started getting nose up Jams like your getting. I went back to new stock new mag springs and they ran perfect. The funny thing is the wolfs run good with all my other loads. When you start running max Sami spec loads the springs have to be matched almost perfect. That's why when you went with the heavier RSA things got worse. If its a pretty easy to feed profile I'd say your mag springs might be a little soft, new oem or wolfs might fix it. 

Welcome orangeride!  Thanks for the great info and tips. 8)

I have an update on the Glock 20 Gen 4. Glock sent me a Gen 3 recoil spring assembly in error. I called them & they sent me a Gen 4 RSA. Fortunately, I have an adapter to use the Gen 3 RSA in my Gen 4 gun. I also received new magazines from Glock. They are also Gen 3 mags, but I figured I would at least give them a try since I'm right handed & would probably never switch the mag release to the right side anyways. I numbered all of the magazines & I purchased an additional Gen 4 magazine.

Went to the range today & tried all of the mags & 3 of the 4 RSA's that I have (new Gen 4, new Gen 3, & Glockstore Tungsten Gen 3 type w/23lb springs). Tried the new Gen 4 RSA first with American Eagle 180gr FMJ. With 1 round in the magazine the slide locked back with 1 of the Gen 3 mags. This was the only time this occurred with any of the magazines. No other issues with the Gen 4 RSA with American Eagle, PMC 170 gr jhp, Underwood Delta Lite 180 gr fmj, Underwood 180 gr TMJ, nor PBR 165 gr fmj. However, with PBR 200 gr FMJ I was having ftf's constantly. The nose of the bullet was consistently lodging against the hood of barrel.

I then tried the Tungsten guide rod w/23lb spring with the PBR 200 gr. Same results. I then tried the Gen 3 rsa. Functioned perfectly with the PBR 200 gr. No ftf or any other issues.

The Gen 3 rsa as well as the Tungsten guide rod w/23lb spring worked perfectly with the Underwood 180 gr TMJ.

It appears that the Gen 3 spring works best with my gun. Now at this point, I am considering calling Glock, letting them know what I am experiencing, & asking if they would exchange my Gen 4 for a Gen 3.

Also, I wanted to add that thanks to all of your help I am better educated on Glock trigger connectors. I examined the trigger connector on the Glock 20 as well as the ones that came on my 17 & 26. The "." connectors came on the 17 & 26. However, the standard unmarked 5.5lb connector came on my Glock 20 gen 4. The Glock rep said that it would have the "." connector. I've installed the "." connector & the "-" connector that I now have on my 26 & 17, but the original 5.5lb connector feels the most crisp. The "." connector is horrible on this gun.

Amazing how a minor tweak here or there can mean the difference between 100% success and utter failure.  I hope they give ya the Gen 3. 8)

Quote from: REDLINE on May 27 2013 03:11:30 PM MDT
Amazing how a minor tweak here or there can mean the difference between 100% success and utter failure.  I hope they give ya the Gen 3. 8)

+1  8)

I need a Cliff Notes on Glock terms  :o

LOL.  I feel the same way when you guys are throwing around Witness and 1911 terminology half the time. :-[

That is why I limit my technical jargon to do-hickey and thing-a-ma-bob.

Received my gun back from Glock Yesterday. They sent me the same gun back with paperwork that said "upgraded, inspected, within specs". I called to find out what they meant by upgraded. The rep said they replaced a number of parts. He listed all the parts (quite a few) but with a poor connection I could not hear to well. I do know that they replaced the ejector.

I will be going to the range to try it out this morning. Unfortunately, I don't have anymore of the heaviest loads from PBR or Underwood. I'll have to wait until they become available again.

Good luck David.  Mine is getting better but not perfect yet.

Brian

Thanks Brian,

It ran perfectly yesterday. But, the warmest loads I had were some 165 gr PBR that Intercooler had sent me. I'll order some 200 gr loads from PBR or Underwood when they have them available.

Thanks all for your info on this. In the market for a g20. My heart wants the Gen4, but reading issues like this makes me want to hold off on the purchase. Also the Gen4 g20 are hard to find in my area.
I went to four dealers, all said will call you. Glock is behind making guns as a whole...

Glad to hear the issues are being worked out.

Thanks sqlbullet.

I ordered a couple boxes of Underwood 200 gr XTP on Friday, so I will be able to try it out this weekend or maybe Thursday. If it works with that, then it is fixed! I'll post the results.

Mine feeds everything.
Weak remington, underwood, and buffalo bore.
Different weights of the uw and bb

David,  I just got my 2 boxes of underwoods 200gr XTP's and I can't wait to see how they shoot. But going to be saving these (if accurate) for hunting purposes.

Brian

Brian, I went to the range today & tried the Underwood 200gr xtp. It was quite accurate. I believe you will love it.

However, it didn't function in my Glock 20. I'm still having the same issue with the heaviest loads. They are not quite feeding into the chamber & getting lodged at the hood of the barrel or partially into the chamber.

I called Glock and they were no help. Told me they fired 105 round of Blazer ammo & it functioned fine. I told the Glock rep that I've fired way more than that of Blazer & American Eagle. I know those function fine. He thought those were "heavy loads".  My next step will be to go back to the store I bought it from & plead for help to get Glock to exchange the gun. If that doesn't work I'll be trading it.

Sorry to hear that! Maybe get a Witness  ;)

Yeah, or use only the Glock approved Blazer ammo :( 

    It's frustrating I know. I have been working on these two EAA mags I traded for and the first trial they were jam-o-matics  :D This last time out they were good after the tune except falling out the bottom. See how it goes tomorrow!

When my love affair started with the 10mm years and years ago when it first got introduced I got my self a colt delta gold cup 10mm and it was the BIGGEST piece of crap I have ever had.  I too had to sell it off .   Sometimes you have to do what you have to do. 

Sorry to hear about this David, and hope you find another 10mm that will make you happy.

Lifes too short to be unhappy with a bad gun that wont function.


Best of luck to you

Brian

Thanks Brian & everyone. I'm tying to decide whether to keep this gun or trade for a Gen 3. It works with the Gen 4 recoil spring with everything but the heaviest 200gr loads. It has worked perfectly with the Gen 3 rsa & a Glockstore adapter with the PBR 200 gr Velocity Supreme. I didn't try it yesterday with the Underwood 200gr xtp, so I will try that next time I go to the range. If it works perfectly I will probably keep it. It has the best trigger of any Glock I've used so that would be hard to give up! And it is accurate. Plus, my wife shoots it well with heavier loads & particularly with the PMC 170gr hp that I keep in it.

All in all, it is more of a minor annoyance that it doesn't work perfectly with every load fed to it with Gen 4 rsa.

DavidF,  best of luck with your decision as I know it will be a tuff one.

Keep us posted.

Brian

Quote from: 445 supermag on July 11 2013 08:53:52 PM MDT
When my love affair started with the 10mm years and years ago when it first got introduced I got my self a colt delta gold cup 10mm and it was the BIGGEST piece of crap I have ever had.  I too had to sell it off

NO ! ! !
Say it isn't so ! ! !
I felt the same about my G20 ("BIGGEST piece of crap I have ever had") and traded it for my Delta Gold Cup
Wouldn't own another Glock if it was given to me
To each his own I guess

Would it be fair to say the Gen 4's are suffering along the lines of a new car model syndrome. It happens when change occurs. It can be good or bad. Not just the 10mm either.

Quote from: DenStinett on July 13 2013 05:42:34 AM MDT

Quote from: 445 supermag on July 11 2013 08:53:52 PM MDT
When my love affair started with the 10mm years and years ago when it first got introduced I got my self a colt delta gold cup 10mm and it was the BIGGEST piece of crap I have ever had.  I too had to sell it off

NO ! ! !
Say it isn't so ! ! !
I felt the same about my G20 ("BIGGEST piece of crap I have ever had") and traded it for my Delta Gold Cup
Wouldn't own another Glock if it was given to me
To each his own I guess

Dont get me wrong I would of NEVER sold the gold cup if it worked.  Its not like I hated the gun I didnt I just hated it NEVER FUNCTIONED at all.  Thats all.

My G20 gen 4 functions flawlessly have been firing target ammo as well as numerous underwood selections without issue, it is completely stock as of now, I have ordered a Rachis recoil system and both 22lb and 24lb springs as the stock RSA allows for some frame battering, have also ordered aftermarket barrel because of increased chamber support though it does not seem to be too much of an issue on the gen 4 I get slight case bulge but no smileys and the bulge is not substantial

Welcome USMC

Glad you like your G20 10mm.    I love mine and cant shoot it enough.

Brian

USMC0341,

Thanks for mentioning the Rachis rsa. I wasn't familiar with it & I've been waiting for someone to come out with a Gen 4 specific rsa with heavier springs. Looks very good especially as it is not captive. I may order one.

My Gen 4 works perfectly with everything as long as I use a Gen 3 rsa & an adapter from Glockstore. So I have decided to keep it.

USMC0341,

Where did you find the 22 & 24 lb springs for the Rachis? I talked to someone at Brass Stacker today & they told me only the 17lb is available.

I ordered a Rachis guide rod (lite carry model) & 17 pound spring that comes with it. I'll try this & see if it works with Underwoods 200 gr xtp.

Quote from: USMC0341 on July 14 2013 09:48:43 AM MDTMy G20 gen 4 functions flawlessly have been firing target ammo as well as numerous underwood selections without issue, it is completely stock as of now, I have ordered a Rachis recoil system and both 22lb and 24lb springs as the stock RSA allows for some frame battering, have also ordered aftermarket barrel because of increased chamber support though it does not seem to be too much of an issue on the gen 4 I get slight case bulge but no smileys and the bulge is not substantial

I hadn't heard of the Rachis recoil system either.  Thanks for bringing it up and welcome to the forum!

I spoke with Kyle & Terry Rutherford of Brass Stacker at length about the Rachis RSA & everything imaginable including where we grew up, weather, declining number of places to shoot, etc. Very nice guys & extremely helpful. Kyle wanted me to call him back with a review of the Rachis & let him know whether it resolved my problems. He also said to return it if it doesn't help. They truly want their customers to be satisfied.  I can't imagine a company with a more friendly staff or one that is more interested in helping their customers. I received the Rachis recoil system yesterday. Very nicely packaged product. Looks like an excellent system for Gen 4 Glocks.

I tried it on my Gen 4 Glock 20 this morning. Although, I believe it to be an excellent product, it didn't help with my issues. I was experiencing failures to feed with Underwood 200 gr xtp's with every spring combination I have (stock Gen 4, stock Gen 3 with an adapter from Glockstore, tungston guide rod w/22lb spring & adapter from Glockstore, & Rachis w/17 lb spring).

The Rachis worked flawlessly with everything else and I believe it is an excellent rsa. The adapter fits perfectly into the slide. The guide rod & spring fit perfectly into the frame. I may put one in my Glock 17.

At this point I will be either trading the gun for another Glock (of undertermined mode) or giving it to my daughter for use with lighter loads than Underwoods. She will try it next weekend and see if she wants it. If I purchase another Glock 20, it will definitely be a Gen 3.

David, thanks for your report and sharing your experiences...I know this is going to sound crazy, but I wonder if the newer gen4 slides weigh less than previous generations?  ???    If the mass is less, then the impulse could be too great despite the RSA.  Do you know someone close that has a gen 3 Glock 20 to compare slides visually and or by weight?  Just a thought?

   Sorry to hear this! This is about the weirdest gun issue I have seen in a while. One of the Witness pieces would serve you well I would think.

DavidF,the Gen 3 I have is a work horse. Look forward to your report when you get one. I am actually planning on another, just gathering the funds. 20 and 22lb springs and steel guide rod, all from Wolff.

Medium loads are fine with stock setup.

Shadow,

No one that I know has a Gen 3. I've handled a couple in gun shops & taken them apart. Slides seem to be the same except for where the guide rod fits at the end. Seems to be the same weight, but haven't weighed them.

pacapcop,

Yes, the Gen 3 look to be the way to go. I bought this particular Gen 4 because the trigger is phenomenal. Should have bought the Gen 3 that was in the same display rack!

David if we were close, I let you try the slide from my 3rd gen 20SF if they would swap, to see if it would run.  Or I could study   the ammo more closely to see if adjustments to COL would help.  I know you have to be frustrated.  ???

The_Shadow,

Thanks, everyone on this forum has been great and very helpful.  Despite my issues with this gun or maybe because of it, I've learned a lot about 10mm's both the guns & ammo.

Yes, definitely frustrated. I think it may in fact be worse since I got it back from Glock.  Before I sent it back to Glock,  it was working with everything I tried in it including 200 gr fmj velocity supreme from PBR with the Gen 3 spring. Now, it is not even working with the Gen 3 spring! On the bright side, It has been absolutely the most accurate, best trigger, & most reliable with light to mid-range loads of any Glock that I've fired. That is why I wouldn't hesitate to give it to my daughter to use. Plus I've got a bunch of ammo for her to train with.

Any Glock expert around you could work with swapping things? I think If it was under warranty it would go back again and again until right!

Or replaced, which should be done at this point. Just saying. Heck, they should offer up a Gen 3 for him.

Yes, asked about replacing the gun. Rather sarcastic response from the Glock rep I spoke with who defined Blazer ammo as "heavy." And, that is the only thing they will test it with or something similar. I've already told them that it's had plenty of Blazer ammo thru it & no issues with that. Don't know any Glock experts in the area. Probably is being that I'm in a pretty big metropolitan area.

That is sad when a rep thinks Blazer is heavy. Makes for starting to get an issued resolved break out the spirits. ???

Where was the gun purchased from might i ask?

From Shootstraight in Apopka, FL. Big store with a number of stores in Florida.

Do they have their own warranty?

No, not like Davidson's.

Quote from: DAVIDF on July 22 2013 01:03:25 PM MDTRather sarcastic response from the Glock rep I spoke with who defined Blazer ammo as "heavy."

I'ld like to think he was just referring to the heavy 200gr bullet.  Could he seriously have meant they average anything over a 30,000 PSI load, let alone 35,000-37,500 PSI load? 

I would like to ask the same rep what he considers lite.  I think the weakest factory 10mm load in existence may be the Federal Hydra-Shok.

Redline,

Yes, he was thinking of bullet weight. But he couldn't seem to grasp the concept that just because the bullet is heavy it doesn't mean the recoil or pressure is heavy or high. He did not seem to understand ballistics, recoil, pressures, etc. I explained to him that the gun wasn't working with a PBR load of 200gr with a velocity of around 1250 fps and that the gun worked perfectly fine with 200gr Blazer at a velocity of about 200 fps slower. He kept stating over and over that they tested the gun with 105 round of Blazer with no malfunctions.

You would think that Glock, with the current state of our economy, would be able to hire employees that have a fair knowledge of ballistics. Or at least would be interested enough to educate themselves from watching youtube!

WOW!  I feel for ya.

I'm opposite that Glock rep...I know lots about ammo but little about guns.  Too bad he wasn't willing to listen to your sound reasoning.

You should have told him you wanted to speak to his supervisor. :))

At least the first guy I spoke to at Glock seemed knowledgeable. He flat out told me that they don't recommend shooting the hottest ammo such as Buffalo Bore & that they would not test my gun with ammo that heavy. He was helpful & honest.

I watched part of an episode of Tac-TV last night with Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, & Dave Spaulding. Ken & Larry were talking about how some Glocks in 40 S&W flex (particularly with lights mounted) & aren't as reliable as the 9mm's. Ken explained how the front of the frame flexes & causes the slide to slow as it is returning to battery causing failures to feed.

The Gen 4's have more of the frame cut out to accomodate the larger diameter double springs. I wonder if the Gen 4 Glock 20's are more prone to this issue? Maybe this is why mine does worse with heavier springs as the slide is of course moving forward even slower.

I don't know.  Of course I have a Gen 3, but I'm always keeping an eye out for ways to slow the slide down, at least for the loads that end up with brass ejected into the next zip code.

Yes, PBR Supreme Velocity & Underwood rounds bounce all around in the indoor gun range I use. But, what Hackathorn says makes sense as I have had better results with lighter springs rather than heavy. The frame flex probably doesn't slow the rearward movement of the slide as significantly, but as the slide starts to move forward the front of the frame has flexed upward toward the guide rod & slide creating more friction. My guess anyways.

Brassfetcher has a video demonstrating variations in slide velocity due to how many rounds loaded in a magazine of a Glock 19.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fr5ccyriJI

David I have to hand it to you in that you have done more than most to get it running.  It may be time like you said to move on to a glock 20 gen 3 or ??


I wish XDM came in 10mm as I would be on it like ... well you know..

Best of luck David.


Brian

Brian,

Thanks, all of you have been very helpful. I'll probably be making up my mind Sunday. Giving one of our Glocks to my daughter, her choice. Then replace that one and or trade this one.

I just looked back to the date of the first post on this thread, it has been almost 3 months. It has been a good learning experience.

David just keep up posted on what you end up doing.

Best of luck

Brian

There was a member over on Glocktalk who had trouble with a 30SF model (.45 ACP). Glock eventually ended up giving him a brand new gun, a 21SF which is the full size .45.

It might be worth a try.

Yeah I gotta hand it to ya on getting it up and running. No doubt a learning experience and the importance of warranties and how much they will cover. Case in point, when I bought my Witness Compact
at Gander Mt, I paid what I would of paid anywhere on market. They simply don't sell much of them. However, they have their lifetime warranty along with EAA's warranty. I go in, drop it off. If problem persists,2 warranties are in play. Good luck on that Gen 3, great pistol. I simply went with the Wolff steel guide rod and various Wolff springs and it eats it all.

My wife & I are going to the range Friday morning. I want her to do some more shooting with it before I make any final decisions. One of my considerations with any firearms purchases is that it is something she can be comfortable using also. We've been narrowing our arsenal down to certain platforms that both of us like and are proficient with. Glocks for pistols & AR platforms for rifles. She's been fine with the 20 before, but since we've had issues with it we'll both decide together whether we're keeping a 20 or trading for another 17 or 19.

We will probably be keeping it and sending it back to Glock again. I'll be asking them that if it is replaced to please replace it with a Gen 3. MRGUNSNGEAR on youtube sent a Gen 4 19 back to them 3 times and they finally replaced it with a new gun.

pacapcop, yes I like the Wolff guide rods and non-captured springs. If I do end up with a Gen 3 I'll be purchasing some.

My wife & I went to the range this morning. Good news & bad! Good news is that she loves it & we are keeping it as is. She doesn't like firing the heaviest loads like the 200 gr Underwoods. The gun functions with everything but the very heaviest. It was working with 180 gr TMJ from Underwood before I sent it back to Glock with the new magazines they sent me. I have not tried those particular loads since they sent it back.

The bad news is that she shoots it better than anything else so I have lost my Glock 20 :'( It is now her EDC gun. I'm stuck with the 17 & 26. I love both of them anyways!

I have a Rachis RSA if anyone has a Gen 4 Glock 20 (or 21). It is designed for Gen 4's only.  It is the lighter carry model.  It is not working in our 20 except with lighter loads. I would be happy to send it to someone free of charge as long as you will evaluate it & let us know how it works.

All in all, I'm glad to hear some kinks are gone and you both now consider the G20 a keeper.

BTW, does your wife have large hands?  Does she use the G20 w/o any grip inserts?  I ask because of the countless minions I've heard complain about G20 (and G21 of course) grip size being too big in their opinion.

She has large hands & uses it with the large grip inserts. The reach to the trigger is perfect. It fits her much better than the 17 with the large grip inserts. I prefer the large grip inserts as well. All of the other Glocks are really too small for us.

Thanks for the feedback.  My G20 is a Gen3, so I don't have the ability to change grip circumference and feel.  In most glove sizes I wear a regular large size which depending on the glove, range from fitting perfectly to being a hair oversized but still perfectly acceptable.  And for me the Gen3 G20 has always felt good in general grip and comfort.

David,

         Any thoughts on getting a Witness 10mm?

I have to try some of this ammo in my G20 Gen4 to see if it fails also.

Intercooler,

No, trying to keep handgun platforms the same so that everything is as simple as possible & as many parts interchangeable as well. But, maybe a Gen 3 is in my future? Not  immediately but eventually.

Ezveedub,

I'd love to hear if yours would work with the hotter 200gr loads where mine failed. I have a Rachis RSA I can send to you also if you'd like to try & let us know how it works in your gun. Didn't help my gun, but I saw a review of a 9mm that fixed it's issues with FTF. PM your info if you want me to send it, no charge.

You might like the Gen 3.

Just sayin..

I am most certain I would! I keep looking at one in a local store. The regular (large frame) fits my hand so nice. Eventually I'll have one ;D I have to buy my daughter a 17 first.

Understood....take care of the young lady. It's good that she shoots!

I originally thought you meant a 17th birthday party, until I remembered we were talking about Glocks.  :P

Quote from: DAVIDF on August 11 2013 04:18:21 AM MDT
Ezveedub,

I'd love to hear if yours would work with the hotter 200gr loads where mine failed. I have a Rachis RSA I can send to you also if you'd like to try & let us know how it works in your gun. Didn't help my gun, but I saw a review of a 9mm that fixed it's issues with FTF. PM your info if you want me to send it, no charge.

I'll see if I can get my hands on some Buffalo Bore 10mm ammo locally. Won't be able to do much for a week or two though. Traveling out of town for the next two weeks.

Quote from: Ezveedub on August 11 2013 02:36:46 PM MDT

Quote from: DAVIDF on August 11 2013 04:18:21 AM MDT
Ezveedub,

I'd love to hear if yours would work with the hotter 200gr loads where mine failed. I have a Rachis RSA I can send to you also if you'd like to try & let us know how it works in your gun. Didn't help my gun, but I saw a review of a 9mm that fixed it's issues with FTF. PM your info if you want me to send it, no charge.

I'll see if I can get my hands on some Buffalo Bore 10mm ammo locally. Won't be able to do much for a week or two though. Traveling out of town for the next two weeks.

I'm actually grabbing some Underwood instead. Buffalo Bore locally is priced too high.

Ezveedub,

PM me with an address if you would like this Rachis RSA. They were really nice at Brassstacker offering me an unconditional refund. But, I would rather send it to someone who could use it & give it a try. I've had lots of help from this forum especially from Intercooler who exchanged a bunch of ammo with me . So, I would just as soon pass that along.

Quote from: DAVIDF on August 12 2013 08:01:39 AM MDT
Ezveedub,

PM me with an address if you would like this Rachis RSA. They were really nice at Brassstacker offering me an unconditional refund. But, I would rather send it to someone who could use it & give it a try. I've had lots of help from this forum especially from Intercooler who exchanged a bunch of ammo with me . So, I would just as soon pass that along.

Davidf, I sent you a PM yesterday. Let me know if you received it.

Got it. Thanks. Missed it somehow. I'll send out to you in a day or 2. Looking forward to hearing how the Underwood works in your Gen 4.

OK, I just left the range. I had got some Underwood 200gr TMJ for my Glock 20 Gen4 based off the issues Davidf had. I carried some Georgia Arms 180gr JHP ammo also. I ran one magazine of the GA 180gr FMJ ammo (15rds), and then ran a complete box of UW 200gr TMJ (50rds). I had zero issues with the Glock 20 Gen4. Davidf did send me the Rachis RSA, but I let him know yesterday that I wouldn't use it, as I found out the spring on the Rachis rubs the barrel. I installed it last night and hand cycled the Glock (i always hand feel the action of my firearms wheninstalling parts) and noticed it didn't feel the same and actually started to loose a bit of spring tension just as the slide is about to close into full battery. It felt like the slide was going to stick with the Rachis RSA vs the stock Glock RSA, so I took it out and examined the Glock internals and noticed the spring has rub marks and a thin line formed on the bottom of the barrel just in front of the locking lug. Anyway, with this said, Underwood 200gr works fine for me in the Glock 20 Gen4. It is loaded hot compared to the Georgia Arms 180gr FMJ. You definitely feel the difference in recoil using Underwood 10mm ammo. When I get a chance, I'll get some Underwood 200gr XTP to try out.

Quote from: Ezveedub on August 11 2013 07:58:28 PM MDT

Quote from: Ezveedub on August 11 2013 02:36:46 PM MDT

Quote from: DAVIDF on August 11 2013 04:18:21 AM MDT
Ezveedub,

I'd love to hear if yours would work with the hotter 200gr loads where mine failed. I have a Rachis RSA I can send to you also if you'd like to try & let us know how it works in your gun. Didn't help my gun, but I saw a review of a 9mm that fixed it's issues with FTF. PM your info if you want me to send it, no charge.

I'll see if I can get my hands on some Buffalo Bore 10mm ammo locally. Won't be able to do much for a week or two though. Traveling out of town for the next two weeks.

I'm actually grabbing some Underwood instead. Buffalo Bore locally is priced too high.

How much is that?? I have to order most of my 10mm online, just curious.

Ezveedub,

Nice to hear yours works perfectly and that it is not a problem with all Gen 4's. And, thanks for the review of the Rachis.  I think I need to keep sending mine back until they replace it.

Quote from: DAVIDF on August 19 2013 05:11:40 AM MDT
Ezveedub,

Nice to hear yours works perfectly and that it is not a problem with all Gen 4's. And, thanks for the review of the Rachis.  I think I need to keep sending mine back until they replace it.

When I get a chance, I post some pics of the Rachis RSA when installed. I used to be able to post from Tapatalk on my phone, but can't since  it was updated.

Quote from: Osageid on August 18 2013 10:11:32 PM MDT

Quote from: Ezveedub on August 11 2013 07:58:28 PM MDT

Quote from: Ezveedub on August 11 2013 02:36:46 PM MDT

Quote from: DAVIDF on August 11 2013 04:18:21 AM MDT
Ezveedub,

I'd love to hear if yours would work with the hotter 200gr loads where mine failed. I have a Rachis RSA I can send to you also if you'd like to try & let us know how it works in your gun. Didn't help my gun, but I saw a review of a 9mm that fixed it's issues with FTF. PM your info if you want me to send it, no charge.

I'll see if I can get my hands on some Buffalo Bore 10mm ammo locally. Won't be able to do much for a week or two though. Traveling out of town for the next two weeks.

I'm actually grabbing some Underwood instead. Buffalo Bore locally is priced too high.

How much is that?? I have to order most of my 10mm online, just curious.

The Underwood was $30.50/50rds for 200gr TMJ and the 200gr XTPs are $38.54, but those are not in stock right now. Right now, there's 135gr JHP ($36.20), 165gr TMJ and 180gr TMJ ($27.00) in stock at Underwood.

My local seller wanted the same prices for 20rd boxes of Buffalo Bore :-/

Here is a pic from the range yesterday with my G20 G4 and the Underwood ammo used.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Ezveedub,

How was the accuracy with the Underwood? I have found their ammo to be the most accurate, particularly the 180 TMJ. I haven't tried the 200gr TMJ. But the Speer TMJ bullets seems to work really well. Same bullet loaded in the Blazer & that one is close to the same in accuracy as the Underwood.

Also, yours functioned well with a full magazine? That is where mine has the most issues. It will usually work with 5 in the magazine, but when it gets to 10 to 15 loaded it fails constantly with the Underwood 200 gr & PBR 200 gr Velocity Supreme.

Davidf,

I loaded all my mags fully with 15rds. Not one issue occurred. The accuracy seems to very good with the TMJ. My G20 had only seen 15rds since new, and it was only Georgia Arms 180gr JHP that was used. I wasn't too happy the 15rds with the GA ammo. The Underwood 200gr TMJ is a fast round and was more accurate for me than the GA FMJ 180gr. It's definitely a full power round. I will have to try different grain weights of Underwood when I get a chance.

I was shooting various calibers yesterday, so my accuracy was a bit off with all the pistols I was testing yesterday. The UW 200gr 10mm, WWB 357 SIG and Speer 200gr .45+P ACP in a 1911 Officers model was a heavy recoil practice round at the range yesterday, LOL. I with all that heavy shooting, I swapped back to the Glock 20 to see if anything would happen with various shooting conditions, but it worked perfectly.

What weight RSA are you running?

Quote from: 4949shooter on August 21 2013 07:07:12 PM MDT
What weight RSA are you running?

If you're asking me, I'm using the stock Glock 20 Gen4 RSA. I did get the Rachis RSA from Davidf, but when I checked the installation fitment, the spring is right up against the barrel and seems to rub against it when cycling the slide. I will have to check the part number on my stock RSA when I get back into town. The Rachis RSA that Davidf sent states it has a 17lb spring, which seems weaker than the stock Glock Gen4 RSA when I cycle the slide. The stock RSA has continuous spring force all the way to close, while the Rachis seems to loose some tension when the slide is closing. I think that's when the spring is starting to rub the barrel. I will probably install the Rachis RSA and try the Underwood TMJ 200gr this weekend to compare it to my stock Glock RSA.

Okay sounds good. Hopefully the Rachis RSA will work. I am thinking you might have to go with a heavier spring weight though, like a 20 or 22 pound.

I don't know if they make the heavier springs for the Gen 4 though.

Quote from: 4949shooter on August 22 2013 05:45:55 PM MDT
Okay sounds good. Hopefully the Rachis RSA will work. I am thinking you might have to go with a heavier spring weight though, like a 20 or 22 pound.

I don't know if they make the heavier springs for the Gen 4 though.

Most people just get the Gen4 recoil spring adapter and run Gen3 RSA in the Gen4. Simpler to do that IMO.

No, a heavier spring is currently not available for the Rachis. Not from Brass Stacker anyways.

I am hoping that someone makes a heavier Gen 4 specific RSA for the 20 before too long. I have an adapter and use Gen 3 guide rods on occasion, but it does not fit the same way in the frame as in a Gen 3.

Write or call Wolff Gun Springs, the letter I wrote and the reply said they were not making springs yet but if enough interest was generated they may add them to the line up!  http://www.gunsprings.com/ (http://www.gunsprings.com/)

Let them hear from you and your needs.   ;)

Thanks Shadow,

I called them, but the guy I talked to was very indifferent about it. Said they had lots of projects to complete first. I'll send them an email this time.

There are plenty of Gen 4 type RSA's available, but all of them I've seen have stock spring weights only. Wouldn't be hard for those manufactures to change spring weights.

I just checked the stock RSA in my Glock 20. It's the "072" marked one, which is the same as the Glock 21.



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The RSA in mine is the same.

I dropped off my 20 at my local shop to be sent back the second time. Let's see what happens. While I was at the shop I had the opportunity to compare the trigger on my Gen 4 to a Gen 3 (dry firing). I've always thought this was a great trigger. After comparing the two of them, I definitely prefer the Gen 4 trigger. It is lighter & crisper. Don't know if it is just this gun as I have not seen another Gen 4 20 in person.

Quote from: DAVIDF on August 28 2013 09:44:52 AM MDT
The RSA in mine is the same.

I dropped off my 20 at my local shop to be sent back the second time. Let's see what happens. While I was at the shop I had the opportunity to compare the trigger on my Gen 4 to a Gen 3 (dry firing). I've always thought this was a great trigger. After comparing the two of them, I definitely prefer the Gen 4 trigger. It is lighter & crisper. Don't know if it is just this gun as I have not seen another Gen 4 20 in person.

I haven't taken my G20 apart to check, but I was made aware that Glock has a "." connector now. It's supposedly comes on Gen4s and makes the trigger really smooth and clean. You may have it and that's why you feel the trigger feels better than the Gen3.

Yes, mine has the "." connector. I have 2 other Gen 4 Glocks, a 26 & a 17 which came with the "." connector. I have since installed the "-" connector & they are much better, but more over travel. The Gen4 20 as it comes has the best trigger by far.

Quote from: DAVIDF on August 29 2013 10:58:25 AM MDT
Yes, mine has the "." connector. I have 2 other Gen 4 Glocks, a 26 & a 17 which came with the "." connector. I have since installed the "-" connector & they are much better, but more over travel. The Gen4 20 as it comes has the best trigger by far.

I have to take my 20 and 22 down, as I didn't see any "." on my connector with the slide forward to examine the back of it. My 20 does have a smoother trigger than my 22 for sure. I heard the "-" in a Gen4 makes the trigger mushy I heard and its not recommended by some. I'll have to see when I get home. I have my friend checking his G20 and G23 Gen4 also.

Yes, it is more mushy. In my 26 particularly, the trigger pull felt too heavy with the "." connector & my trigger finger was actually sore after an extended range session. I also recently swapped the trigger on the 26 for a smooth surfaced Gen4 17 trigger. I don't like the ridges on the 26 & 19 triggers.

In the 20 I like it slightly better with the "." connector than the "-" as it already feels pretty light. I don't have a guage, but the 20 with the "." connector feels lighter than the 26 or 17 with the "-" connector.

Got to love these Glocks how modular they are, you can take all of the components off the frame in about 30 seconds. I have to get more familiar with completely dissasembling the slide now.

Quote from: DAVIDF on August 29 2013 01:57:39 PM MDT
Yes, it is more mushy. In my 26 particularly, the trigger pull felt too heavy with the "." connector & my trigger finger was actually sore after an extended range session. I also recently swapped the trigger on the 26 for a smooth surfaced Gen4 17 trigger. I don't like the ridges on the 26 & 19 triggers.

In the 20 I like it slightly better with the "." connector than the "-" as it already feels pretty light. I don't have a guage, but the 20 with the "." connector feels lighter than the 26 or 17 with the "-" connector.

Got to love these Glocks how modular they are, you can take all of the components off the frame in about 30 seconds. I have to get more familiar with completely dissasembling the slide now.

I may try the "." Connectors in my 26 and 19 Gen3s to see how they feel. I also like the smooth triggers also. The ribbed triggers do make my finger sore as well.

I did take down my Gen4s and I definitely have the "." connectors in my G20 and G22. My buddy has the same also in his G20 and G23 Gen4s too.

As for taking down the slide, it's super easy. It's way easier than the frame, at least for me that is. Only real change I made was adding Maritime spring cups to my 26. All you do is compress the small plastic cup right in front of the firing pin latch and slide the back plate off and slowly release the firing pin and extractor rod from behind the back plate. Depress the firing pin block and the extractor falls out.

What is the advantage of the maritime spring cups? I have a Glock catalog that shows them. From the image, they look less durable than the standard. Also, they say they are available to law enforcement only or are they available in store or online? Just like the 50 round boxes of LE only Hornady Critical Duty.

Good to hear that the slides are even easier. I'll have to take my 26 slide apart this weekend. It is the oldest of our Glocks & probably has the most dirt in the slides internal parts.

The Maritime cups are used if the pistol is used in wet conditions. Say if it gets dropped into water and/or is completely submerged. If you pull it out and try firing it immediately, you may get light primer strikes and fail to fires due to water being in the firing pin channel trying to compress against the firing pin action. The Maritime cups have notches which allow the water to drain out of the firing pin channel when the gun is fired. Since Glocks are striker fired, if you get a fail to fire, you have to rack the slide to cock it again, but you just lost a round. With Maritime cups, you're adding additional countermeasures to prevent fail to fires if its completely wet. They are not for shooting under water like most think they for.

For LE/MIL, these cups would be installed say for anyone who may be in water and has to draw the weapon for immediate usage. They are restricted to civilians, but you can find them for sale online and eBay. I think I have Ghost cups, but may get OEM Glock cups also. They may wear out faster, but any Glock that may get completely soaked in water, it's a nice option to have, especially if FL.

Thanks for the explanation. From the shape I figured it had something to do with water draining, but I didn't think of anything like light primer strikes.

I just received a call from Glock. They decided to send me a new 20 of my choice either Gen 3 or Gen 4. The armorer explained that since they don't have heavier ammo to test it with they would just send me the new one. I had even offered to order some Underwood & have it shipped directly to them before they made the decision to send me a new one. I along with my wife since she prefers the 20, decided to have them send us a Gen 3. The armorer who called was very considerate & pleasant to deal with.

Awsome news. Gen 3 is a workhorse. I use the 22lb Wolff spring and steel guide rod for the nuke stuff.

Yes! I like that uncaptured Wolff spring & guide rod. I may order the same.

Excellent service from Glock. I was thinking they might send you a new one...and your choice of gen as well!

Yes, that was very considerate of them. I have heard of someone receiving a completely different model than the one they returned. If I recall correctly, a 20 or 21 was sent in for repair/replacement & at the customers request Glock replaced with a 34. I expected to have to send it back a 3rd time. From the few others that I have heard of sending theirs back, it was replaced on the 3rd time. I am very happy with their service & will continue acquiring more Glocks :D

Glad to hear they took care of you. Now you have to load up the Gen3 with the 200gr UW and take it to the range.

Yes, I saved a box for whatever they sent back to me.

What I find interesting, is the 200gr is not the hottest round by UW, just the heaviest gr in copper jacket. I'm wondering if OAL had something to do with you Gen4? The 135/155/165gr 10mm are hotter loads when it comes to FPS and muzzle energy.

Could be a combination of OAL and recoil velocity? I did not try the fastest 135/155/165gr loads. I did try a 165 gr PBR Velocity Supreme (around 1340 fps) which Intercooler traded with me. They functioned OK, but I don't remember if I tried with a fully loaded magazine or only 5. All of the rest I tried were 180 or 200 gr loads. I should have kept written notes, I believe I had no problem with Underwood 180 gr TMJ with a fully loaded magazine (once Glock sent me new magazines & a new RSA). However, once I got the gun back from Glock & after they replaced a number of the internal parts of the frame, it wouldn't work with Armscor 180 gr fmj which is about 150 fps slower than the Underwood. I'll check the OAL of the Armscor tonight, now I'm curious.

David,
I have a G20SF Gen3, been having the same issues with FTF for almost a yr now. Bought a aftermarket bbl from Storm Lake after having a KB from hot handloads and OEM bbl.
Replaced the RS with the ISMI rod and 20-22lb springs, replaced the trigger spring too. Replaced the magazine springs with Wolf +10 mag springs. Still same problem with 200-220 gr hard lead from both Underwood and my own handloads using Doubletap lead  bullets. About ready to sell this thing.
My girlfriend shoots a S&W 1006, awesome pistol with no problems whatsoever!!! However, they have doubled in price lately, none to be found at a reasonable price.
I live in NW Wyo., big bears are a problem here and I switched from a Ruger Bisley .45 LC with nuclear handloads to a G20, I think I'm going back to my big revolver until this FTF thing gets worked out. Thanks for the test reports, I'm kinda doing the same thing with no changes in performance so far. I really liked the idea of a affordable(?) semi-auto that would work in self defense for big critters.

It's seems odd, because Hickok45 has shot 230gr hardcast and then 220gr through a stock barrel and aftermarket barrel in the Glock 20 G2 or G3 and he never mentions any FTF issues. I'm just wondering if anyone having issues has had anyone else shoot their Glock 20 and see if the same issue occurs?

Yes Hickok45 did have a misfed in one of his Glock 20 and glock 29 videos...using some cast WFNGC from one of the makers, while it was the only one it did raise some concerns.  One of the main causes can be the angle of the cartridge as it tries to enter the chamber, these wide flat noses can drag the feed ramp and the upper reaches of the chamber if seated too long.  If I recall, DT was seating his stuff to 1.242" to help feeding issues by allowing more tipping angle.

High Impulse rounds can increase slide velocities to the point of over running the feeding from the magazine.
Some have noted that recoil systems using round wire springs in the Glock 20's, were found to bunch up, adding drag or short stroking of the slide.

There is a delicate balance for things to work in unison!  8)

Hickok45 was using Buffalo Bore 220 Lead with a stock barrel.

Semper Fi,

My 20 was supposed to replace a Super Blackhawk, but no big bears that like to eat you here. Only mild mannered black bears that run the other direction. Hopefully the new gun will work with heavy loads, but I don't need it to work with the heaviest cast loads. I was thinking of trying Wolff magazine springs, but when I described my problem to them, they didn't seem to think that would help.

Ezveedub,

I measure OAL on a few of the Armscor 180gr vs Bazer & Underwood 200gr XTP. The Armscor is maybe a couple thousands longer than the Blazer at about 1.251 and the Underwood was longest at about 1.255. The Underwood 180 gr TMJ was shorter at about 1.245 (if I remember correctly) & it fed better than the Armscor. I'll keep better notes with this new gun while I'm seeing what works & what doesn't.