I was finally able to find a pound of blue dot powder, and after hearing so many positives from the folks here, I ordered it.
I'm not really sure how it compares to the #9 powder that I've been using, but I'm hoping to get some decent speeds out of it with 155, 175 cast/powder coat and 180 pills for deer hunting.
Will be shooting these out of my 16" barreled carbine and hope to be able to find a bullet combination that it likes.
Since this is the first time I've used blue dot I'm not exactly what I should expect out of it. But, if it doesn't work out so good with the 10mm, maybe it'll do OK with 357 or shotgun loads I guess. I load for them too.
Hey John, I haven?t pushed BD very hard yet, but have loaded a ton of them for range work. For accuracy, it seems like 10.4gr under a 180gr XTP or HAP is the magic number. Other than that, it makes for some impressive fire balls (very flashy) I read a few years back that BD is temperature sensitive in cold weather, and can cause pressure spikes, but have not been able to find a definitive answer either way. BE-86 is another excellent power with a flash suppressant if you can find some
I appreciate reading your posts so much. I learn something every time I come here.
I do have some BE86. It did pretty good. #9 was still the best velocity numbers I have seen that I've tried. Longshot and titegroup were Ok too. Nothing to write home about. But, OK and not pathetic numbers like some I see posted with some commercial manufacturers shooting over a chrono on youtube. It's like some of them are loading for 40 S&W or something? The whole point of 10mm is to see a noticeable gain. Not get 9mm velocities and penetration which is what I have observed from several sources.
And to be honest, that's what kept me from getting into 10mm for so long. But, in seeing some of the numbers I'm able to load to, are respectable and opening my eyes to what the round is capable of.
I had a conversation with a good friend of mine today who was asking why I built the (10mm) pistol cal. So, I politely showed him that the energy (foot pound) numbers I'm getting are on par with what he could get out of a 223 rem. He didn't believe me at first but I pulled up the calculator ( https://larrywillis.com/bullet-energy.html ) and showed him.
Actually, the 155 gr bullet at 1770 fps average has ~50 more ft lb of energy than a 55 gr 223 at 2900 fps does. And with more bullet length and larger diameter bullet that doesn't fragment all into pieces when it hits something. So, that got him quietly thinking that just maybe a pistol caliber could be a viable trunk or brush gun. I don't think he was expecting to see the energy numbers that I was seeing from it.
I don't really mind blue dot being flashy as long as I don't get a lot of blowback in the face from it. I suspect that the carbine barrel may reduce a lot of that compared to using it out of a handgun at least. I have some 180 gr round nose armscor bullets. I could see if I could find the overall length of the xtp's and try to decipher how deep to seat them so I don't compress the charges. I generally start at the longest col allowed and go from there. Along with dropping the charges some and working up, but that goes without saying. I want to keep my fingers where God originally put them.
Absolutely, I know Underwood is getting 1,600 fps out of their 135gr bullets, but have looked high and low, and everyone seems to be out of them. The 155gr are always good as you mentioned. I?m sure some of the others can help more with the stout BD loads
Hello John A. I too have been bitten by the PCC in 10mm bug.
It's been my experience that Blue Dot doesn't really like to be pushed to max loads. It's great for accuracy at moderate velocities. As Ken mentioned the 10.4gr under 180gr bullets seems to be the magic number. Many other members have stated the same thing, exactly.
I had very good results with Power Pistol, Longshot, and 800x, when trying for max velocity out of my AR carbine. 800X has a very unusual and unpredictable potential for pressure spikes when loaded to the max. Longshot does not. 9.4gr or 9.6gr of Longshot was as far as I went with 180gr XTPs, Armscor FMJs, and Zero 180gr HPs. Sorry, I'm not at home to look at my log. I haven't tried #9 yet as my chronograph has died and I'm waiting for Labradars to come back in stock.
Be aware that there is some old .357 load data for Blue Dot using 125gr bullets. While Blue Dot is a very dependable powder, it's use for 125gr bullets is no longer recommended because it was discovered to have rare and flukey pressure spikes with that bullet weight. Same with 800X. I shot a bunch of those with no problem at max, all hand weighed charges, and had one go off like a proof load. No damage, but very disconcerting.
Be safe and have fun!
Thank you both for the replies. They are appreciated.
Even if the bluedot doesn't get as much speed as some of the others, I'm thankful to have it. Especially in the current environment. Sadly, I don't see things getting better any time soon. If anything, I'm still expecting much worse.
I have other guns I can use the powder in too. So, it's not just a single use powder. But, I am most interested in finding out what it will do in the 10mm the most and was the whole reason I ordered it.
Graybeard, I wasn't aware of that with bluedot and 125 gr 357. After thinking about it, I think I may have a handful of 125 gr xtp in the box. Though, I generally load it with 158's is my go to weight for those.
I just glanced at the alliant load data page and you are correct that they do not even list the 125 gr bullet in it. So, thank you for the heads up. 8)
Hey John, I?m pretty sure there are some archived posts in regards to pushing 135 - 165gr 10mm bullets to near max, but I haven?t been able to find many. Personally, if I want to milk out some serious velocity in the 10mm, my go-to rd is Underwood?s 135gr with the Nosler bullet. I?ll admit I?m not as adventurous as some when it comes to this, but that?s ok
* BALLISTICS INFORMATION
* Ballistic Coefficient (G1) : 0.090
* Muzzle Energy (ft. lbs) : 768
* Muzzle Velocity (fps) : 1,600
* Sectional Density : 0.120
Hey John, congratulations on the BD score.
As many of us have said, that 10.4 gr load with almost any well made 180 gr bullet seems to be the accuracy magic load for every 10mm I've tried it in. Personal favorites are the Xtreme Hollow point or the Star HP for killing paper or steel plates and the Hornady XTP for a hunting bullet. (I load the 180 gr Star Hp with 10.2 gr exclusively in my 40 Deep Throat sudo wildcat)
I always say I load more for accuracy and if I need more power, I get a bigger caliber but I wasn't always. Back in my teen years through my early 20's I went through what I call my Magnumitus phase when I tried to load everything I had to the absolute max velocity. I tested a lot of Blue Dot in 9mm, 45 acp, 38 spl / 357, etc.
Going through my notes, (and I kept notes only because Elmer Kieth said it was a good idea) I could only find two other loads where that "accuracy magic" happened.
The first was a 45 acp +P load using the old Speer 200 gr "flying ashtray" and the other was my affordable "lite magnum" 454 Casull load using the old 260 gr Speer flat point. (still seems humorous calling a load pushing a 260 gr 45 caliber bullet 1450 fps lite but you have to keep in context the factory load was pushing a 260 gr bullet close to 2000 fps!)
Going back to 10mm, I never found another bullet weight where that accuracy magic happened. With 135 & 155 gr bullets, Power Pistol was always more accurate. With 200 & 220 gr bullets, #9 and sometimes Longshot were more accurate. ???
I recently got to chrono my 180gr, 10.4 gr loads in a 12" Mec-Tech CCU and was getting 1400 fps with 3" 50 yard groups. Your 16" barrel should give you a bit more velocity and I would think adequate for hunting.
Jeff
Thanks for the info Jeff, I?ve always liked loads.45?s, and think it?s time to work up some new loads
Thank you very much for the reply fltbed.
For many years, I have been loading my own because I can get much better results than what I can get from commercial ammo. That's not bragging on my behalf, but I've designed and made a lot of silencers and most commercial subsonic rounds that you can buy, leave a lot to be desired. That's putting it very mildly and politely.
So, for me to get excited over seeing what I can wring out of a bullet and powder combination is outside the norm for me.
I don't necessarily have to push a bullet as hard as I can for me to like it either. Though, I'm trying to get a complete pass through at the distances that I hunt because I lost a deer year before last because even though while it was a good hit, it was able to run much further than I would have ever suspected, crossed the property line into the state animal reserve, so my goal is to avoid that happening again if at all possible.
I'm sure I'm not the only guy that has ever lost a deer, but it still about made me sick because I'm not a wasteful type and had I known how it would've played out, I never would've even went that morning and I do not like not being able to find it and it losing its' life being wasted.
One of the reasons I think it made it as far as it did is that I only found about 4 drops of blood while tracking it in a place where it stopped for a minute. So, I think the entrance wound sealed up. And with no exit, means it leaked out in its' chest cavity. I have no doubt that it died soon after from the way it was acting. But, as I said, I'm just trying to squeeze all that I can out of whichever load that I narrow down the closer to season opening.
And that is even considering if I don't take one with a crossbow before then. I've been blessed to have taken several with the crossbow and I've never had one run more than a handful of steps before they're done. Archery starts much earlier and if I can get another with the crossbow, that's fine too. My season will be over then. But, if not, I want to believe that I'll be bringing the best that I can to the table with the 10mm as plan B.
And I'll be using the 10mm at crossbow ranges too. So, I'm hoping that it's up to the task. 18-25 yards is my average shot distance up there. So, while accuracy is a concern of course, but I'm hoping to get a complete pass through the boiler room. I just have no idea if my expectations are realistic from it or not.
I'm still really torn whether to choose the 155 xtp or the 180 xtp. Even though the 155 is shorter, it is still several hundred more fps behind it. 1770 fps vs 1550 fps. 1080 ft lbs vs. 960 ft lbs. ~50 feet away. At those numbers and distances, I don't think the lighter bullet would be disappointing.
I also bought the 175 gr Lee truncated cone mold that I'm going to try a few powder coated hard cast with it that I may choose over the xtp's? Decisions, decisions.
Hey John, my average distance is very similar with the P220 10, and have had the most success with 180, and 200gr XTP or gold dots. For me, a pass through isn?t that relevant, they usually just fall over in 50 yards or less.
When you consider that short of a distance, a 200gr bullet is still really moven
You're not wrong kenk. That's still pretty fast and hitting hard.
Absolutely, and a 200gr expanding bullet makes for a pretty large wound cavity as well. I understand losing a critter in the woods is a painful thing, and most do everything possible to avoid it from happening. A good (large) expanding bullet hitting at around 1,200 fps at 25 yards or less should make most any mid sized critter fall over pretty quickly, at least in my experience. I guess it comes down to what we think is the most humane way to d it. I?m sure a 155gr traveling substantially faster would work equally well, I just like a heavier bullet
Normally I like a heavier bullet too. I prefer to lob heavy artillery. If it weren't for being worried about meat loss, I would use cannonballs. 60mm mortar. You know, just whatever I had laying around handy at the time ;D
I would imaging the only thing different between the 155 and 180 xtp is the length, weight and velocity. Other than that, I would figure they're pretty much the same.
Would either do what it needed to at the distance that I'd likely be using it at? Probably. I just commonly tend to over-think things like this.
Maybe I should shoot a couple into some 5 gallon buckets full of water or sand and see if one or the other shows a marked improvement over the other. Then I could put the question to rest.
Evening John, have you considered anything like this?
https://lehighdefense.com/400-caliber-140-grain-xtreme-penetrator-lead-free-bullets-100-count.html
I have heard of them, but know little about them.
I have some that I was given to beta test for the 9x39 caliber, but as far as I know, those never came to fruition in the market unfortunately.
I know that they also have some for the 300blk and probably a bunch of other calibers.
But, I don't really know a whole lot about them, or what one could expect from them.
Edit to add:
Many years ago when I was a young teenager, my great uncle showed me how to carve an exposed bullet into a cross shape, very similar to the design of them.
I recall him telling me that back during WW2, they and the Brit's would often carve shapes onto the rounds because they were forbidden to use more effective loads in their guns against the nazi's, and they called them dum dums.
I'm not sure if that is what the extreme penetrators inspiration came from or not, but that does come to mind.
John, if you want guaranteed pass through, the Lehigh Defense extreme penetrator is just the ticket 😀
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvzul3rvTk
That was genuinely impressive. I wasn't expecting that.
Quote from: John A. on July 17 2022 08:57:01 AM MDT
Thank you very much for the reply fltbed.
I don't necessarily have to push a bullet as hard as I can for me to like it either. Though, I'm trying to get a complete pass through at the distances that I hunt because I lost a deer year before last because even though while it was a good hit, it was able to run much further than I would have ever suspected, crossed the property line into the state animal reserve, so my goal is to avoid that happening again if at all possible.
I'm sure I'm not the only guy that has ever lost a deer, but it still about made me sick because I'm not a wasteful type and had I known how it would've played out, I never would've even went that morning and I do not like not being able to find it and it losing its' life being wasted.
One of the reasons I think it made it as far as it did is that I only found about 4 drops of blood while tracking it in a place where it stopped for a minute. So, I think the entrance wound sealed up. And with no exit, means it leaked out in its' chest cavity. I have no doubt that it died soon after from the way it was acting. But, as I said, I'm just trying to squeeze all that I can out of whichever load that I narrow down the closer to season opening.
I hear you John. The only time I lost a deer was with a JHP pistol bullet in a lever action rifle. (although it was taken by the folks on the farm about a mile away)
Now, I will preface this by saying I have ZERO experience deer hunting with the 10mm. (here in PA. we're not allowed to use autoloading pistols or rifles)
However, I do have around three decades of hunting with revolvers Contenders and lever action PCC's in 357, 44 & 45 Colt. From my experience, velocity has a little to do with penetration while bullet construction is almost everything. JHP bullets designed to expand at pistol velocities tend to expand violently, like a varmint bullet, when pushed an extra 300-400 fps from a rifle. We got the best performance from cast lead Kieth and LBT bullets. (turns out old Elmer Kieth was right about those big meplat bullets after all)
Since we don't have rifle velocity to take advantage of that hydro-static shock, we need to rely on blood lost and as we all know, blood leaks out faster from two holes than one. Wide meplat cast bullets tend to cut a clean hole through deer like using a drill. It's hard to tell the entrance hole from the exit.
Now, not all jacketed bullets were useless in the PCC's & contenders. Hornady use to make an excellent .357 180 gr flat point with two cannelures. (I think it was made for the 357 Maximum) Sierra made a 44 cal 300 gr flat point that held together pretty well and Speer made a 45 cal 260 gr flat point that worked marvelous in my old 94 Trapper. But they were the exceptions.
Velocity does affect penetration but not like you expect. I ran some testing back in the early 2000's and was getting more penetration in my Flackler box from my 45 Colt using 280 gr LBT bullets at 950 fps versus 1200 fps. A friend of my sons, who was going to engineering school, tried to explain to me the physics behind why. After his 10 minute lecture, I told him, Yep...You hit the nail on the head. ???
So don't be overlooking those old school cast bullets. They will get the job done.
Jeff
Everything you have said has coincided with what I have observed as well.
And the one I lost, was with one of Lehighs' max expansion bullets. I recovered one in a 5 gallon bucket of water, and in my opinion, it opened up properly, but just lacked the deep penetration that I was hoping for. As I said, I'm sure the deer died. But, not until after it had well crossed the property line and beyond where I am allowed to track it.
Here's a picture of the bullet that I recovered from the water bucket prior to hunting with it when I was testing them out.
This is sitting on a quarter for size reference. Looked real promising huh? I thought so.
(https://i.imgur.com/DY5wpmH.jpg)
Now I know a lot more. Expansion certainly slows the velocity and reduces the expansion. So, having something not expand as quickly would help for penetration depth.
I do have some hard cast 175 gr bullets that I picked up. A semi wadcutter. Though, I'm not sure whether my gun will feed them or not? Those were actually the bullets that I was most excited about to try with hunting because I think they would be the most likely to get a pass through. And I also bought a 175 gr lee truncated cone nose bullet that I can pour and powder coat too.
The comment that you made about expansion is spot on with my experiences too.
On another hunt, I was using a 6.8 scp caliber. It was the first year that the hornady SST bullets were available. They were supposed to be a bonded bullet.
I shot the buck, he collapsed where he stood. So, I can't argue with the result. DRT (dead right there). He anchored where he stood. Only time I've ever seen that in person. It's heart was slush when I opened him up to field dress him.
But, even though that was only about 45 yards away, and probably 2400 fps, despite that it was supposed to be a bonded bullet, it failed to exit. I found a handful of fragments just underneath of the hide on the exit side. The biggest piece recovered was the jacket that had peeled off. The rest was BB sized fragmentation.
That deer had no blood whatsoever that came out of the entrance wound. Like the other experience that I mentioned, the entrance wound sealed up almost immediately. Though, I do realize that some of the explanation from the lack of blood was due to the fact the heart wasn't pumping once the bullet impacted, so I chalked that up to that.
But, I'll say that my crossbow bolts/arrows do pass through quite readily. And I'm going to be quite honest about it. There would be no possible way to miss the bloodtrail from it. It's very apparent and unmistakable.
I'm not meaning to be offensive, and I realize there are many people out there that thinks meat comes from the grocery store. I grew up helping slaughter and skin and prepare our own food, so pics like the one I'm going to add below is just a fact of life. But, if you look around in the photo, you can't miss it. Here's your NSFW advance notice. If it bothers anyone to see blood or a legally harvested deer, just exit off the post I guess.
(https://i.imgur.com/7GVVTFy.jpg)
It made maybe 4 steps and that was it.
Entrance and exit hole both, is what my goal is.
And for that exact reason.
I'm not wanting it to be cruel or whatever as some may would think. Quite the contrary, it's because I don't want to be cruel and cause undue suffering.
fltbed, 357's are a staple in the woods where I hunt. As I have mentioned, 30, 35 yards, that's typical distances for harvesting deer here. 357 do quiet well.
Those Lehigh maximum expansion bullets really do have limited penetration. They certainly look like they would make a pretty good mess for the amount they do penetrate.
Most of the deer I've taken in the last decade were with Remington 180gr ballistic tip ammo in .300win mag. With similar shot placement I've only had one DRT and that was at 312yds. The ones shot at between 85 and 150yds all ran for 30-40yds. The heart and lungs were nearly liquified in all of them. Sometimes they run and don't even know they're dead. Don't beat yourself up.
Since you have a concern with deer crossing boundaries where they can't be retrieved, I understand your desire to have them go down quickly. Perhaps a good compromise bullet would be the 180gr XTP? They're pretty tough bullets for being non bonded. They don't expand as much as some others and seem to penetrate quite well. They should be tough enough to break a shoulder and keep going. Choosing a bullet that performs at the greatly varying velocities between 25yds and 100yds seems to be the key.
Thanks graybeard.
Not gonna lie though, I know that it may happen, but I hold myself to a higher level.
The deer crossed over into a state animal preserve. One of the largest state owned properties in my state.
Our property just happens to border it.
I may could have crossed over and continued tracking and maybe retrieve it.
Then again, the state tends to patrol the area very well during deer season. And if I had gotten caught, I would've likely been charged with poaching, my gun taken, court and all the other pleasantries from the state to protect the kings deer.
So, I stopped at the barb wire fence.
I circled all around the upper end of the property, and even came home and got my dog to help me track to make sure that it was there and the dog ended up within a few feet of where I tracked it to the property line, but it wasn't there on our side.
I'm considering using a hard cast 175 for the first shot. I think it will have the most likelihood to get a pass through and an XTP if I need or get the chance for a followup shot.
That seems like a logical approach.
I have those same standards. Fortunately, the only deer I ever lost was actually stolen!
As much as I love the 10mms, I will suggest this. My close up deer gun is a Henry Big Boy Steel in .44mag. Usually with 240gr semi jacketed soft points. It?s really accurate at 100yd. This could be an excuse, err valid reason, to buy another gun?.. ;)
In fairness, I have a 357 single shot with 16" barrel. My wife took over the 357 model 66 with 6 inch barrel that I used to carry in a shoulder holster up there.
I didn't think I could convince my wife that I needed to buy a new gun, but I'll tell them graybeard said I did. It might just work if I play my cards right.
I'll let you know how it works out later.
;D
OK. I'm back. I asked the wife.
She said if Graybeard thought I needed a 44 magnum lever action, she said that you should get me one.
So, now she's put the ball back into your court.
Just kidding.
She just said "have you lost your ever lovin' mind again? Just take the mossberg and a handful of slugs"
I guess that means no.
Hey John,
Sounds very familiar, in my experience with the 180 and 200gr XTP?s on whitetail, they hit hard, but don?t expand like say a Gold Dot would, thus achieving the best of both worlds. Your getting the needed penetration, and also some expansion. The two I?ve taken with Underwood?s 180 and 200gr XTP were not pass throughs, but they busted up everything in their way, and didn?t go far.
Perfect info.
Do you have any idea what the velocity and approximate distance was?
Thanks Kenk.
The one with this 200gr XTP was aprx 20 yards out
* BALLISTICS INFORMATION
* Ballistic Coefficient (G1) : 0.200
* Muzzle Energy (ft. lbs) : 694
* Muzzle Velocity (fps) : 1,250
* Sectional Density : 0.180
https://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto-200-grain-xtp-jacketed-hollow-point.html
Plus, their delivery time is incredible, usually to my door in 3 days, or you could just get some XTP?s and roll your own 😀
Good data.
I will be loading my own.
I fear Mrs John A may be correct. You don?t ?need? a 44mag Henry :( Now a 350legend upper for an existing AR, that?s another story!
I was afraid that you'd say that. But, you can't blame me for trying ;)
350 legend interested me some.
I ended up going a slightly different way though. I ended up making an integrally suppressed 9x39 AR loosely based on the VSS Vintorez/As Val/
I really enjoy lobbing those big heavy bullets (265-300 gr) and for the fast stuff, I also have some 125 gr and 140 gr pills for it it. I generally use 9.3mm mauser (.366") bullets for it.
Oh great, now you've got me thinking about something I might "need." ;D
Choices are good. Right?