I ask Kevin about his hottest loads and the support required by the barrel for the G20 and G29. He said if they were recommending it would be Bar Sto Barrels but the simple fact was that the factory Glock barrel had more than enough support around the case on their ammo. That the only thing the other barrel did was help accuracy due to tighter tolerances. Now I do not claim to know anything on this subject except on the accuracy part and that is because I can shoot having been taught in many different courses over the years and knowing how to handle both a handgun and a rifle.As a gunsmith I suck. As a shooter you do not want me shooting at you. Not bragging just telling it like it is. If the gun works I can work it. If the gun does not work I am as dead as yesterdays news.That being said what are the reasons for Ka Booms. We all know case failure,over pressure,poor construction of the bullet. Now give me the other things that can cause it.Lets leave a sorry gun out of it. Ammo only.I hear more bad things from large factory ammo makers like FTF's etc usually not Ka Booms ,cause they are so weak, than I do from the smaller manafactures.When factory ammo explodes someone somewhere did not do their job period.Maybe the powder maker,maybe the brass maker, maybe the constructor but somewhere some how some human had a hand in the Ka Boom. Just my thoughts. I am leaving reloaders alone here and any manafacture that exceeds pressure limits is asking for it.
Quote from: RRMan03 on April 22 2013 09:07:51 PM MDTThat being said what are the reasons for Ka Booms. We all know case failure,over pressure,poor construction of the bullet. Now give me the other things that can cause it.
The only other thing I can think of is someone modifying their gun in a way that ends up compromising its integrity regarding handling pressures it was originally meant to.
As far as case failures go, this can happen 3 different ways that I'm aware, that don't all equal a KB.
1) The brass case partially splits lengthwise (sometimes around its circumference), but all bullet, powder, and pressure still go out the end of the barrel we'ld prefer.
2) The brass case blows at the 6 o'clock chamber position via lack of barrel chamber support (may or may not be because of an overloaded powder charge, but usually seems to be in my estimation).
3) The brass case splits lengthwise in multiple areas (
shreds would be my terminology) usually resulting in a more catastrophic KB where the barrel chamber itself splits (sometimes in the form of a crack, while other times gaping).
Not sure there are other ways or reasons except for something unheard of like the gun being at -300 degrees F when it was fired.
When you say; "...poor construction of the bullet.", do you mean sloppy load technique like as in adding too much powder or a bullet not crimped in the brass case properly?
Quote from: RRMan03 on April 22 2013 09:07:51 PM MDT...but the simple fact was that the factory Glock barrel had more than enough support around the case on their ammo.
I think that would be 99.999% true if none of his 10mm loads left the factory loaded beyond the 37,000 PSI he claims their intentions to be. CLEARLY that hasn't always been the case, with some of his 10mm rounds leaving the factory surpassing that level.
Yes I meant sloppy loading.
I don't own a firearm that ever needed a barrel swap to be accurate or shoot the round it'schambered in. All that seems crazy to me :-X
Need has variable definitions.
I will say this about Underwood.
Colt says the Delta Elite will handle any 10mm Auto ammo that is loaded to SAAMI spec. Colt's ran fine with Norma ammo. There were not huge reports of KB's. Numerous gun writers have also said the Delta Elite works fine with SAAMI spec 10mm ammo.
Yes, the Delta Elite barrel clearly lack case head support other designs offer. Regardless, Colt still stands behind their product as capable of SAAMI spec ammo.
Kevin is blunt that his ammo is hotter than he thinks the Delta Elite can handle.
This leaves us with one of two options: Either the whole of Colt and the gun magazine industry is wrong and the Delta Elite won't handle true SAAMI spec 10mm Auto ammo, or Kevin's ammo is not to spec.
That may or may not be in the direct control of Underwood. The_Shadow has commented that Starline brass may not be up to snuff. If that is the case, then the ammo may well fall withing the SAAMI pressure guidelines, but still be out of spec.
I don't have the means to validate which is which. I also don't have any 10mm that don't have ramped barrels. And I handload and don't buy commercial ammo.
But is is an interesting point to consider.
Colt and Glock are the two companies are making barrels for. Says something
Both valid points. If they need aftermarket barrels then the ammo is out of spec. Wheather it is Kevins fault or not is not the point. He is the end seller.He stands behind what he sells.
Here is some food for thought that I didn't cover related to levels of "need".
I grew up in rural Indiana in the 80's. Starting at age 16 we all gained a new hobby. We worked on cars. Cars, that in point of fact, operated just fine. My car got new struts, new axle half-shafts, a new fuel pump, new spark plugs, new tires, a new shift knob and a new stereo, complete with new 6X9" co-ax speakers in the rear deck. Teenage boys work on cars, whether they are broken or not. Granted, all those parts were a little worn on my car, and the new stereo sounded better, but all the parts I replace except the tires were perfectly serviceable for another 20-50K miles at least.
Gun guys tend to be the same. We accessorize our guns. Rail lights, night sights, crimson trace grips or fancy wood ones. And barrels. Nothing yells "upgrade me" like a barrel. I mean it is THE gun. Everything else is the mount or the ignition system. But the barrel...that is where it all happens.
And they are relatively inexpensive and on a Glock especially they are easy to upgrade. All the is left is the need for an excuse. And Glock provides us a good one, right in the manual. "4. No liability whatever can be accepted if inexpertly manufactured or inexpertly filled ammunition is used." is the current language.
Pretty soon this is attributed to the polygonal rifling of the barrel and a "need" is born.
If you are going to run hot-rod ammo, a barrel built to tighter tolerance and with more support is surely an excellent idea in a Delta Elite. It is a pretty good idea in a Glock.
But it is not needed if you are going to buy or load ammo that is not on the "hot rod" side of the fence. You could run Winchester Silvertips or Buffalo Bore 180 JHP's for a long, long time in a Delta Elite with nary a kaboom, and likely not many smiles.
True but some of us purchase the ones who can go mild or wild as-is :P
And back to all my questions. I like to shoot full power most od the time. Not overloads that i know of but full powr 10mm. In a Glock do I need to change from the factory barrel. Some say yes,some say no,Kevin says not with his ammo so I just do not have a clue. For accuracy drop in probably better for just shooting OEM.
And yet you've seen fit to modify numerous parts on your beloved mild-wild as-is EAA yourself...aftermarket sights, aftermarket firing pin block, cone guide rod, aftermarket extra long lightweight firing pin, aftermarket hammer spring, aftermarket shock buffer,...
So much for as-is.
Quote from: RRMan03 on April 23 2013 11:41:09 AM MDTAnd back to all my questions. I like to shoot full power most od the time. Not overloads that i know of but full powr 10mm. In a Glock do I need to change from the factory barrel. Some say yes,some say no,Kevin says not with his ammo so I just do not have a clue. For accuracy drop in probably better for just shooting OEM.
Look bro, you can take all the chances with Underwood Ammo you want. Chances are you may never have an issue with your stock Glock barrel safely shooting Underwood ammo. But clearly there have been issues with stock Glock stock barrels (among other barrels of other platforms like the Delta Elite barrel) shooting Underwood ammo because it's a fact some Underwood ammo has left the factory loaded beyond 37,500 PSI. Take the chance or don't, it's up to you.
I for one will not run Underwood ammo in my stock Glock barrels at least until I've seen a positive change in the way Underwood is loading their rounds. So far I haven't seen it. Kevin has proven himself to be full of it from the standpoint we've seen negative issues (proof) with his ammo from two standpoints. One, without question some of his ammo has left the factory loaded easily beyond 37,500 PSI, and Two, clearly this has caused issues with a good handful of factory barrels.
It may be different if we only ever saw an issue once. Like a fluke or something. Unfortunately there wasn't a single fluke occurance, but rather a few at least. Again, if you want to take the chance, go ahead. You may never have an issue. But so far we know for a fact that if you are going to have an issue it will more than likely be with Underwood ammo. What else do you need to know? Take the chance or don't, it's up to you. Clearly though you will be taking a chance that may or may not ever bite you.
The above all in reference to 10mm Auto.
Thanks Redline for the input. I am not one to turn a blind ear to the fact that running at top sped wheather in a car or a gun can and will lead to bad things. I have considered a BarSto Barrel but after putting that in am I still at risk? If the ammo is out of spec I tend to say yes. There are many opinions on here about Underwood ammo and from what I have shot I like it but that is not saying if it is not QC and checked by lot that bad things can happen. But my question still is by changing the barrel if the ammo is still over pressure do you solve your problem? Opinions and thanks.
But no barrel ;D
The cone rod helps in the long run. Same for most the others but didn't do a hammer spring. Could have shot it totally as-is for years out of the box with the nastiest stuff.
Same is true for my Glock 29.
I replaced the backplate on my Glock with another factory one because I didn't like the scratch on the one that it came with. And I replaced the +2 baseplates for factory since I wanted more concealment.
My Glock is more factory now than when I got it. And I will run anything you want in it.
And I have now proved my point. It is your gun do what you want to it to have the fun you want to get out of it. Run it anyway you want that you can afford and be happy. If all were meant to be the same then they would come that way in the box. Man I love getting everybody talking. You can get so much good insite into your on self and weapon.
My funny post for the night.
Nobody is twisting your(http://www.karateblogger.com/stari/images/torite2.jpg) to shoot (http://blog.prandiprop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Top-Dog.jpg) ammo!
;D
Quote from: RRMan03 on April 23 2013 12:33:34 PM MDTBut my question still is by changing the barrel if the ammo is still over pressure do you solve your problem?
Most aftermarket barrels (Bar-Sto, KKM, Storm Lake) for Glock 10mm pistols will solve the issue all together from everything I've gathered so far.
Personally I still wouldn't trust the newest Lone Wolf barrels though, as they've really opened up the chamber mouths from what they used to be, and much more so over the other three I mentioned above.
IMO with Bar-Sto, KKM, and Storm Lake, you're good for at least 40,000 PSI. I for one wouldn't hesitate for a nanosecond to shoot any Underwood 10mm load through my G20 with my Storm Lake barrel installed.
On a side note, and for general FYI, SAAMI not only creates and has specs for cartridge average and max pressure levels, but also for PROOF CARTRIDGE pressure levels for gun manufacturers to design their guns around to be considered safe, even if a hot load enters the mix on rare occasion because of ammo manufacturer mishaps and what not. Those proof pressures by SAAMI for 10mm Auto chambered platforms are:
Minimum Average = 50,500 PSI
Maximum Average = 54,000 PSI
Maximum Extreme Variation = 9800 PSI
Is it just me, or do others agree there is no question at least some gun manufactuers are skipping that testing? ::)
IC,
None of us would care about an aftermarket barrel for safeties sake in any platform but the Delta Elite if Kevin Underwood would stop allowing 10mm rounds over 37,500 PSI to leave his facility and enter the public sector. It's because of his poor manufactuering process and/or Quality Control that there becomes a reason to go with an aftermarket barrel in the first place. That is not a fault of the Glock barrel design.
And to anyone who wants to suggest there may not be an issue with some 10mm Underwood ammo being overpressure then you can futilely attemp explaining how UW gets a 200gr XTP from 10mm Auto to hit 1300 FPS from less than 5" of barrel without being beyond 37,500 PSI. NOT POSSIBLE.
Yet another reason that I thing the brass casing is an issue! I have loaded many loads using just about every make brass new and used to levels that equal Underwood's loadings. While I have seen bulged cases I have only see one very minor "SMILE" and it may have been "SMILED" prior to me handloading it and shooting, I could have missed it because it was so slight.
I have seen more case expansion from Star Line Brass using the same loads in other makes as shot in the same barrels... ???
If I ever get out of remodel mode with any spare money left I may have to buy some Winchester brass and do some testing.
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 23 2013 08:49:17 PM MDT
Yet another reason that I thing the brass casing is an issue! I have loaded many loads using just about every make brass new and used to levels that equal Underwood's loadings. While I have seen bulged cases I have only see one very minor "SMILE" and it may have been "SMILED" prior to me handloading it and shooting, I could have missed it because it was so slight.
I have seen more case expansion from Star Line Brass using the same loads in other makes as shot in the same barrels... ???
With the stock G29 barrel, and not your Storm Lake barrel?
Did you load some up with 800-X under a 200gr XTP that was hitting 1300 FPS from less than 5" of barrel?
Honestly, I'm having a hard time buying into there being any issue with the Starline brand of brass. Not saying it aint so, but I'm having doubts. ;D
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 23 2013 10:01:17 PM MDT
If I ever get out of remodel mode with any spare money left I may have to buy some Winchester brass and do some testing.
Maybe it would be worth looking into the nickel plated stuff too, along with the plain brass counterparts.
I had a some Hornady 200XTP's above the 1250fps mark with the stock G-29 barrel with no smiles using LongShot and 800X.
Also remember, firearms manufacturers recommend NO reloaded, or "inexpertly" manufactured or filled ammunition be used, and disclaim any result of using this ammo. They all recommend new, current production, common, commercially manufactured ammunition be used. They don't bury this in fine print. I'm certain they have little or no interest in your ability to reuse the cases once fired and leave the firearm. A bulged, "smiled", or even a split case is of little concern as long as the round fires normally otherwise. Underwood, for example, does not fall into the category of acceptable , also evidenced by the volume vs. complaints. The major brands produce millions of times the volume, yet have fewer complaints of fitment or failures. You can be certain that every load developed by the major ammunition manufacturers have been properly tested. The same can't be said of the boutique suppliers, with no evidence of actual testing, beyond stated claims. Either they aren't testing, or have tested and don't want you to know their results. If they have been tested, and found to be within acceptable specs, it would be simple to include test results with the product description (as is found with the major manufacturers). Merely saying, "within SAAMI specs" means nothing. It's a guess, or a lie, and nothing more.
DM1906 has a good point.
If one of the big boys tests 1 round in 100000, or .001%, they are still testing thousands of rounds a year. For the boutique loader than may be only 5 or 6 rounds in a given caliber.
I don't know how many rounds Underwood, or Double Tap tests in a year, but I would not be surprised to find that Federal or Remington tests more rounds in a year than a boutique loader sells.
Instead of trying to offer new bullet weights/configurations an easier solution would be to offer the slightly downloaded "delta elite" loads in all of the bullet weights along with the "full power" current loads. He already does this with the 180gr 10mm load and 9mm loads (+p, +p+). The same components can be utilized so theoretically except for the initial testing (which was probably already done when the initial loads were worked up) there would be virtually no increased cost involved.
Call him up and suggest it. Only way it will happen is if enough people want it.
Quote from: RRMan03 on April 22 2013 09:07:51 PM MDTI ask Kevin about his hottest loads and the support required by the barrel for the G20 and G29. He said...the simple fact was that the factory Glock barrel had more than enough support around the case on their ammo.
That being said what are the reasons for Ka Booms. ...any manafacture that exceeds pressure limits is asking for it.
Some great food for thought has been brought up in this thread. I guess at this point I don't know what else could be said. We have some facts and theories, good baselines and questionable reasoning/practices.
In what I'm seeing it doesn't appear Kevin Underwood is too concerned about his ammo to change a thing. There's a concensus by some that nothing needs to change. I would submit some facts suggest otherwise. At any rate time will tell if further issues arise with Underwood 10mm ammo. In the mean time those interested in shooting factory ammo will have to decide from crossroads which path to take, shoot Underwood 10mm ammo or not.
I for one hope Kevin is working behind the scenes to see to it that discrepancies with his 10mm ammo disappear. What leaves me uncomfortable with his 10mm ammo is he doesn't seem to acknowledge there is or has been any issue at all. Maybe I missed something. In the mean time (which has a chance of never ending) I know for myself that if I do shoot any of his ammo in my Glocks, it won't be with the stock barrels. Of course all others will make that decision for themselves.
That's my 2 cents of a take away from this conversation.
Or don't shoot it and save it all for me :D
Shadow,
Got some of Kevin's 180 and 300 XTP .44's this week. Been a long time since I could grab any so will send those down with his newer scaled back 180's to see what's in there.
Sounds great... 8)
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 24 2013 09:01:19 PM MDTI had a some Hornady 200XTP's above the 1250fps mark with the stock G-29 barrel with no smiles using LongShot and 800X.
That's impressive. Forgot to ask; Did you use new Starline brass cases in those workups?
Desiring an update, I have a G20 with the 6.6" LWD threaded barrel, and about 240 rounds of Underwood Ammo "D
Both my Glocks have run fine with the hottest loads from Underwood, Buffalo Bore, and even some Doubletap hard cast (I know...no lead).
I do believe the earlier Glock barrels were less supported. I also believe that Glock got wise to this and began offering their barrels with more support. When I compare the barrels from Lone Wolf with my two stock Glock 20 barrels, they really look similar.
Glock knows we shoot Underwood out of their guns these days.
If you're shooting the Delta Elite, you are best served by installing a supported barrel, (duh) a flat-bottomed firing pin retainer, (focusing energies on the mainspring) and, if possible, a slightly heavier mainspring (by 1 lb.). All the aforementioned modifications will retard the rapid recoil without battering the slide. After accomplishing these, you can shoot all the hotter ammunition your heart desires. (So I have been told).
My Gen4 G20 has consumed many varieties of pre-loaded ammo. Of the things I've tried, there were two that produced some smiled cases.
1. Doubletap 135g Nosler loading. Lost some primers when run through the Witness too.
2. Underwood 150g Nolser loading. Plenty warm.
I can't say smiled cases are necessarily dangerous, but my comfort level is exceeded with these loads, especially the Doubletap. Absolutely don't re-use the smiled cases!
I've run UW in 135g Nosler, 165g Gold Dots, 180g Gold dots, 220g Hardcast (feeding issues in the G20), and others that escape my memory. No bad signs from any of those.
Greg
Of all the loads I have read about and shot, It seems that the 165-180 grain loads are the "cat's pajamas" when it comes down to personal defense. Penetration depth, expansion (sometimes questionable). With the ligher bullet weights the high-velocity loads expand violently, but may not be effective. (It's doubtful, yet possible). Controllablility is an issue, because shot placment seems the prime imperative.
Ran a box of 20 Buffalo Bore HC Lead through a Gen3 G20C and noticed no lead build-up...
Recoil was not bad, considering the lightweight frame, but you guys have spoiled my
expectations talking about S&W 1006 and Witness Hunter recoil with full-house 10mm :P
I was putting all rounds within a 6" pattern at ~10yds >:D
I have 3 guns in 10mm. EAA and S&W handle the 200 gr fine but get case separation in my 6" Perfect 10 STI. One separation was so bad the gun went back to STI. The G20 handled the 200 gr Underwood ok with stock barrel I just couldn't hit the side of a barn shooting from the inside. Not the only Glock I couldn't shoot. Been shooting a 1911 for 62 years.
Quote from: warren5421 on March 07 2016 07:51:28 PM MST
I have 3 guns in 10mm. EAA and S&W handle the 200 gr fine but get case separation in my 6" Perfect 10 STI.
What do you think caused that? Is the unsupported area at the bottom rear of the barrel noticeably larger on the STI?
Have you measured or slugged the barrel? Not saying this is your issue...There are some barrels that may fall in the 0.3990" size and that could raise pressures over that of looser bores. ???
Also might have a shorter leade that is causing pressures to spike.
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 08 2016 09:23:03 PM MST
Also might have a shorter leade that is causing pressures to spike.
Can you refresh my memory on what a "leade" is? Maybe the distance between the front of the bullet and the beginning of the riflings?
Yes.
So if the bullet is sitting against the rifling you will encounter higher pressure as the bullet has to break neck tension and engrave rifling at the same time.