Thought I'd share
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=414533
Interesting. Are you registered on that site? Ask him to post a picture of a round in the barrel. Anything can happen but never in any of my pistols. Possibly a bad round but the box of ammo would need inspected to see.
I have asked.
I registered and asked to buy what he has remaining. I honestly think in good firearms Kevin's stuff isn't even at the limit. FWIW all the stuff I have shot I have never ever lost a primer.
I just saw Wilson pointed right at Kevin's ammo. Beats me but I have never had an issue. I have also shot the screaming 155's that Kevin isn't offering without issue.
Would it help in any way for me to test expansion with the models I have to see what is what?
This time it wasn't a Glock, though it seems like the all steel Wilson protected his hand more than a Glock would have.
Lesson learned folks. DO NOT push the ammo limits past the limits of what the guns were designed for. Why don't some of these boutique manufacturers realize this? The guns were designed for NORMA level loads. The boutique manufacturers want to be faster than the next guy. But faster isn't always better when it comes to ammunition / gun design. KEEP IT WITHIN SAAMI LIMITS. KU will not lose any business if he does so. HE WILL GAIN Business, or at least keep the business he has.
Somebody on the thread made a joke about using IC's medieval gauntlet gloves while shooting this ammo.
IC, if you are having lunch with Kevin you ought to talk some sense into him.
I would like to see some investigation into what caused it first. Maybe that is why DoubleTap went backwards to cover all firearms.
Not to long ago i suggested to Kevin to consider a 170 jhp at 1300 and call it the "Original".Maybe folks need to request their intrest in a load like the "Norma".It's plenty powerful and should be good for carry.
Hopefully the owner of the WC posts some pictures. The ones there are pretty blurry and don't tell much. Would be nice to see some of the others before these. Also of the barrel with a round slid in to see what the support is. I tried to find WC barrel ramp pics but no dice.
Anyone know what bullet was used?
No info listed. Looking at the cases could they have fired out of battery? Seems like some odd stuff looking at that brass.
Looks like their is a Wilson Rep on 1911 site stateing "Ask underwood what kind of pressure test they done".
Again what I see looking at the case is STARLINE, very soft by design and less thickness near the case web. ???
Have not seen how much chamber support is offered by the WC barrel for fully chambered cartridges, the blowout shows more than there should be. If it is like that of Colt, BINGO! :o
What recoil Spring and Main Spring rates are being used with the WC? Did the gun unlock too early allowing more unsupported cartridge? ???
I registered and posted a couple of questions there but says waiting for moderator approval. Do we have a WC owner here that can do a support photo?
Without seeing some pics of what that barrel and setup is all about it could be anything. The ammo needs pulled down to see where it is and were these the first two or did the ones prior have bulges but didn't bust?
What happens if the WC barrel is way tight on the brass? Could this left the round hanging out like that to expose the weak area?
I found this WC 10mm Hunter picture but doesn't give the best picture. It is ramped! Guess this episode will sell some underpowered and expensive WC 10mm ammo :o
(http://images.rockwellarms.com/ProductImages/WilsonCombat/Pistols/C1-HTRC-FS-10-alt4.jpg)
My Razorback a similar shot
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/Intercooler2/20120602_112149.jpg)[/URL]
Let me grab it and pull the mag out for another photo.
(http://images.rockwellarms.com/ProductImages/WilsonCombat/Pistols/C1-HTRC-FS-10-alt4.jpg)
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/417798_528864243818279_1886374260_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/58850_528864350484935_1002178210_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/601789_528864520484918_997082985_n.jpg)
Based off my untrained eye... doesn't it look like the chamber edges all around on the WC are very rounded compared to my DW? Possibly to aid with better feeding?
Quote from: Intercooler on April 21 2013 08:46:34 AM MDT
I registered and posted a couple of questions there but says waiting for moderator approval. Do we have a WC owner here that can do a support photo?
Without seeing some pics of what that barrel and setup is all about it could be anything. The ammo needs pulled down to see where it is and were these the first two or did the ones prior have bulges but didn't bust?
What happens if the WC barrel is way tight on the brass? Could this left the round hanging out like that to expose the weak area?
I posted the request also for more photos.
Quote from: 4949shooter on April 21 2013 03:57:29 AM MDTWhy don't some of these boutique manufacturers realize this?
Because folks feel the need to have the biggest, baddest ammo on the planet so that they can brag to strangers on the internet about how they have the biggest, baddest ammo on the planet. ::)
They'll keep making it as long as folks keep buying it.
I phoned Kevin up to see if he knew about it.
Kevin is handling anything with the ammo including covering any cost to ship the firearm to WC for inspection/repair and replacement of the ammo. The shooter wasn't hurt, WC seems to be up to task looking his Hunter over. Unfortunate it was Kevin's ammo in there when it happened. This firearm doesn't have a ton of info out there on what the pieces look like but hopefully that thread gets more answers. I was told it was a 180gr that was thought to be the round and recent tests shows the 180's at 1300 FPS instead of the old 1330-1350 FPS.
Quote from: LeMat on April 21 2013 12:10:45 PM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on April 21 2013 03:57:29 AM MDTWhy don't some of these boutique manufacturers realize this?
Because folks feel the need to have the biggest, baddest ammo on the planet so that they can brag to strangers on the internet about how they have the biggest, baddest ammo on the planet. ::)
They'll keep making it as long as folks keep buying it.
You are right.
In trying to decipher it all and what to do it boils down to this. If Underwood isn't your thing for one reason or the other use what you feel good with (or load your own) but should we try to make them change for a few? I kind of understand some of the MFG's not changing their core lineup unless something is dangerous. High performance ammo is what it is and for everything else we have the Federals, Winchesters, BVAC, PPU, etc... The economics of competing with the big makers at similar performance wouldn't work.
Bro,
That thread has went silent and none of my posts made it. Can you ask the round count on that Hunter? It looks like it hasn't been used and I know how my DW was new. I wouldn't and didn't try Kevin's ammo in it until I knew it was broken in and functioning as it should.
Quote from: Intercooler on April 21 2013 01:34:00 PM MDT
Bro,
That thread has went silent and none of my posts made it. Can you ask the round count on that Hunter? It looks like it hasn't been used and I know how my DW was new. I wouldn't and didn't try Kevin's ammo in it until I knew it was broken in and functioning as it should.
Will do
Bumped it.
I wish we knew which Underwood 10mm load it was and how long ago the rounds in question were manufactured.
I also wish I could say I was surprised the incident happened at all.
I don't think it's so much about Underwood's 10mm ammo being safe within the realm of Underwood's intentions. I do think the reason Underwood 10mm ammo shows the faults on occasion it does is that their quality control is lacking. If my theory is correct and they get QC under control, then all potential furture issues disappear (at least with newly manufacturered round from that point forward). If they don't get QC under control then I see furture issues continuing.
It really is their choice. Whether they choose to make it or not is up to them. That it would seem they don't have QC in order yet at this point is beyond me. Though as we don't know the age of the loads in this most recent mishap, it's also premature for me to suggest.
Time and more answers will tell.
When I send the next group of ammo down to Shadow I will put a few of the latest 1300 FPS TMJ's in for pull-down.
I read stories such as Clark compacting 800-X and having no issues plus Jay at Elite loading to some crazy extreme without issue. Then we have everything from a BVAC round to an Underwood showing it's ugly head. I'm not crazy enough to try a double charge but in the right firearm I bet it's no issue. Kevin told me he has some new equipment that detects a variance in charge.
Quote from: Intercooler on April 21 2013 01:10:48 PM MDT
In trying to decipher it all and what to do it boils down to this. If Underwood isn't your thing for one reason or the other use what you feel good with (or load your own) but should we try to make them change for a few? I kind of understand some of the MFG's not changing their core lineup unless something is dangerous. High performance ammo is what it is and for everything else we have the Federals, Winchesters, BVAC, PPU, etc... The economics of competing with the big makers at similar performance wouldn't work.
They wouldn't be changing for a few, they would be changing for the entire industry. Let's put safe ammo out there so we can shoot, and our children can shoot. Perhaps Redline is correct, and it is merely a quality control issue over there. The problem is, there are too many KB's with Kevin's ammo in a short period of time. And we can't blame it on the Glocks anymore (or the UPS guy).
I am not saying offer watered down 10mm ammo. Just offer full power stuff within SAAMI specs. This isn't a difficult concept. And if QC needs to be addressed then do so, but this goes for any ammo manufacturer.
I wonder what equipment Kevin is loading 10mm on. Dillon 1050? Some other progressive press? I'm quite sure he's not doing it single stage like Swampfox used to.
Quote from: 4949shooter on April 21 2013 02:13:25 PM MDTThe problem is, there are too many KB's with Kevin's ammo in a short period of time. And we can't blame it on the Glocks anymore (or the UPS guy).
Not even just KBs, but serious smilies too. Smilies that were at the very edge of a KB.
If you feel strongly about it Kevin's Facebook page would be a good place to relay the message.
It actually is changing for a few. Me personally I am fine with it as it is and wouldn't try to change Kevin's product or suggest it. If I don't like it move to say DoubleTap. Maybe the wrong way to put it but that would be like buying a Corvette and telling them to change the engine or put a limiter on it because it's too radical. Phone him up and express your concerns about a change because he will give you an ear. It's tough in the high performance arena it seems.
We actually need a chambered cartridge picture to show the 6 o'cock support as a first step. Support vs. the amount of casing blow out.
Given the impulse of the ammo, did the next round in the magazine experience a bullet setback (hit by previous round during ejection or barrel ramp) That could raise the pressure to a higher level.
1911 styled guns do function a little differently with respect to lockup and recoil spring rates... ???
Are we seeing a change or weaker web in the Starline Brass? ???
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 21 2013 02:55:35 PM MDTAre we seeing a change or weaker web in the Starline Brass? ???
I doubt it.
Response from OP
Quote from: SCS1911;4476124Alright, I have a bunch of pictures and info from Kevin (who called me today).
First the pictures for every one to see and then I will address the call.
So I field stripped the Hunter (which has ~1,000 rounds through it) as well as a few of my other 10mm pistols and took side by side photos of the barrels.
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/835472ab-8fa3-4db7-b970-d45e87bef4c1_zpse0ec7319.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/SCS1911/media/835472ab-8fa3-4db7-b970-d45e87bef4c1_zpse0ec7319.jpg.html)
1) The WC Hunter with ~1000 round count
2) WC TE also ~1,000 round count
3) NHC Heine long slide ~5-600 round count
4) Stock Glock 20 barrel ~2-300 round count
5) KKM Glock 20 barrel 5-600 round count
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/IMG_0135_zps1badbdce.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/SCS1911/media/IMG_0135_zps1badbdce.jpg.html)
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/IMG_0136_zps2ed6c79e.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/SCS1911/media/IMG_0136_zps2ed6c79e.jpg.html)
These two show the barrels with the Underwood 180 grain TMJ rounds in the chambers and the ramp area.
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/IMG_0137_zpsfae84530.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/SCS1911/media/IMG_0137_zpsfae84530.jpg.html)
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/IMG_0138_zpse5f86848.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/SCS1911/media/IMG_0138_zpse5f86848.jpg.html)
The above two pictures show the barrels with WC rounds in the chambers.
Continued
Quote from: SCS1911;4476133The next set of pictures show just the 1911 barrels and the Underwood ammo in an upright chamber as well as the "blown out" round in the Hunter's chamber.
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/IMG_0140_zps49a7d28d.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/SCS1911/media/IMG_0140_zps49a7d28d.jpg.html)
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/IMG_0142_zpse87adf93.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/SCS1911/media/IMG_0142_zpse87adf93.jpg.html)
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/IMG_0143_zps4bdf8f3e.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/SCS1911/media/IMG_0143_zps4bdf8f3e.jpg.html)
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/IMG_0144_zpsc9efc57a.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/SCS1911/media/IMG_0144_zpsc9efc57a.jpg.html)
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/IMG_0146_zpse771e6b3.jpg) (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/SCS1911/media/IMG_0146_zpse771e6b3.jpg.html)
That was a tight fit to place the blown out round in the chamber since there was expansion of the case.
Continued
Quote from: SCS1911;4476152So to address the phone call from Kevin today.
He was very professional as well as concerned for both his customer as well as his product.
I described the events that happened and he immediately asked if there was damage done to the pistol and that he would reimburse me for any repair/work that was needed.
We narrowed the loads down to a patch that I had purchased last July. Since I store my range ammo in 50 cal ammo cans I can't send him the boxed ammo.
He wants me to ship him the ammo in question and he will replace/reimburse me for it.
He did state that at the end of last year they had decreased the pressures in the 180 grain loads (as well as other loads) while trying to keep velocity up. That was more reassuring that the ammo I have bought this year has less pressure and less risk of this occurring again.
He wanted to test some of the ammo in question, so as to learn something from it.
He said that are constantly checking and rechecking their loads and pressures so that they are putting out the best ammo possible.
All in all it was a great interaction. Kevin is a stand up guy and runs an equally stand up company, especially since their ammo prices have not changed since all the panic buying.
In this picture, it looks like the cartridge is not fully head space inside? Maybe backed out some...
(http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb474/SCS1911/IMG_0146_zpse771e6b3.jpg)
That first picture doesn't it look like the barrel in question when viewed there has the least of all 5 in support at the ramp area?
At any rate I don't see anything too extreme there. Anyone want me take pictures of any of mine in the same setting let me know.
Pretty much what Kevin told me today too. Don't know but... I couldn't do ammo ;D
Took some pictures of the DW barrel in similar positions with an Underwood 180 TMJ
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/6761_528983293806374_1782379622_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/305741_528983413806362_1313391507_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/9943_528983503806353_886143032_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/317317_528983573806346_1371691587_n.jpg)
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 21 2013 03:43:27 PM MDT
In this picture, it looks like the cartridge is not fully head space inside?
I looked that one over and agree. More of the brass in the 8 to 4 area is exposed than the new round inserted in.
Bro,
Can you ask what MFG and spring rating he is running?
Quote from: Intercooler on April 21 2013 02:30:36 PM MDT
If you feel strongly about it Kevin's Facebook page would be a good place to relay the message.
It actually is changing for a few. Me personally I am fine with it as it is and wouldn't try to change Kevin's product or suggest it. If I don't like it move to say DoubleTap. Maybe the wrong way to put it but that would be like buying a Corvette and telling them to change the engine or put a limiter on it because it's too radical. Phone him up and express your concerns about a change because he will give you an ear. It's tough in the high performance arena it seems.
I am not on Facebook, but even if I were I wouldn't put anything on Kevin's Facebook about this because I wouldn't want to trash his business.
I have no inclination to express my concerns to him either. There is other ammo I can buy in 10mm which is plenty powerful enough. Hopefully he can straighten this out. I am a proponent of 10mm and I don't want to see any ammo manufacturer take a dive. Kevin knows the concerns, and now it is up to him to fix them.
I will have to disagree with your Corvette analogy though. "Norma" level (SAAMI) ammunition IS FULL POWER 10mm. We are not giving up anything by loading ammo to the level the guns were designed to handle.
Oh, and as Redline said earlier, quality control may be an issue as well.
And I still like Pacapcop's suggestion of a 170 grain load at 1300 fps.
What was the original Norma. Even that is confusing because I read initially it was a 170gr@1400 FPS then they backed it down to 1300 FPS when it was scaled back. The current 180's are at 1300 FPS which isn't far off.
Quote from: Intercooler on April 21 2013 04:57:49 PM MDT
Bro,
Can you ask what MFG and spring rating he is running?
Done and waiting for a reply
Quote from: Intercooler on April 21 2013 05:42:14 PM MDT
What was the original Norma. Even that is confusing because I read initially it was a 170gr@1400 FPS then they backed it down to 1300 FPS when it was scaled back. The current 180's are at 1300 FPS which isn't far off.
From my understanding it is 170 @1300 to 1350.
And 200 @1200.
I think the powders and firearms of today are better suited to strong 10mm than back then. That's why I give some wiggle room on the loadings.
Thanks for posting the pics Bro KV!
It's hilarious to me that Wilson Combat would consider their barrels to have full chamber support. IMO they aren't even close let alone being seriously hogged out at the chamber mouth. Overall, I can't see that they offer any better support than a G20. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they don't make a quality gun overall, as I consider them second to none in the 1911 world. That said, their 10mm chambers offer nowhere near full case support!
And it's not just WC either. I have yet to see a 10mm barrel outside of a T/C Contender that has full chamber support. Some, like my Storm Lake barrel are very good, but anything less than 100% IS NOT full support. Kimber barrels are the closest to full support I've seen, and they aren't full support.
That is true,the 180's are not that far off.i I can tell you that is why i personally decieded that regardless of weather it's Underwood or whatever maker of ammo, I as well as we wanted a suitable ammo that conformed to 10mm specs.Underwood has done a great job brining the 10mm to reality as opposed to factory level stuff on market.Kudos to Intercooler for doing alot of the leg work,no doubt.That being said,there is those looking for a carry round for personel protection and those who hunt.I think the happy medium would be a 170 grain at 1300 and a 200 grain at 1200.That's just my take on it and i think it's acceptable.By the way im carrying Kev's 165 Golden Sabers still,in a G20.Norma settled with a 170 at 1300 after the 1400.
Did you catch the area at the feed ramp in the WC that isn't ground back like in my DW? See if you can spot it before I point it out. I thought a 1911 that expensive got the full treatment of hand fitting?
Again, another interesting development. I do think that Underwood puts out good ammo, but there have obviously been some bumps in the road. It is interesting to note that the ammo in question here is from an older batch.
There are so many places where stuff can go wrong when mass producing max pressure ammo. First, 800x meters poorly and is not very forgiving when loaded over max. Second, when you are trying to mass produce ammo you move quickly (you know, so you can actually turn a profit AND keep prices down!). When you are moving fast there is more likely to be a round with a little too much powder, too little case tension (bullet setback), or a combination of both. Every once in a while you get that "perfect storm" with a combination (stacking) of a few variables and you have a blowout. None of these case blowouts or lost primers have scared me that much, but the 357 SIG KKM barrel kB looked really bad.
I do think that Underwood makes good ammo, I will continue to use it. I do know that Kevin has taken responsibility and compensated all those who have had a problem with his ammo.
The owner states that it has the stock recoil spring 22# with 1000 rounds down the pipe I believe.
IMHO....
We can look all around, but it seems to me you don't get 8% more velocity without more pressure. Either higher peak or flatter curve. This is where CUP is a better method than piezo/psi. A flatter curve will crush the copper test cup more where the peak PSI will not reflect that.
We can go on about chamber support or early unlock or out of battery. But this was two shots in in the same session just a few rounds apart. That rules out a freak occurance. Most likely not an out of battery or early unlock.
And while you can argue the case support is not 100%, no autoloader is going to meet the standard of a Thompson/Center. There has to be a guide path and that means less support on the head. But, the support should be plenty far back to still be over the actual head.
So, we are left with ammo that is most likely hotter than most 10mm auto is meant to be. Just because you haven't had an event doesn't mean you wont, or that the load is truly safe in your gun.
I am not ripping on Kevin. He doesn't hide what his ammo is. And it is very economical. I would love to see him load up some "originals" as has been suggested here. That might cause me to buy a few commercial boxes.
The Wilson Rep is saying that early unlock/out of battery cannot cause case failure. Not saying that is what happened in this particular situation but it can happen. Am I wrong here?
Quote from: Bro KV on April 21 2013 08:29:23 PM MDT
The Wilson Rep is saying that early unlock/out of battery cannot cause case failure. Not saying that is what happened in this particular situation but it can happen. Am I wrong here?
I believe he's saying that a weak/weaker recoil spring does not cause an early unlock/out of battery situation.
If this was MythBusters I guess we would deem this one "Plausible".
Those that would like some originals. Can you share what that is for a 135, 220, etc... and I will pass it on to Kevin? He may not move on it but WTH.
Let's see.
I asked Kevin if he would scale back or do two lines like PBR has done with the Supreme and V-Supreme. Two lines seem like more setup work than just making them all one level.
Quote from: Intercooler on April 22 2013 03:31:17 AM MDT
If this was MythBusters I guess we would deem this one "Plausible".
Those that would like some originals. Can you share what that is for a 135, 220, etc... and I will pass it on to Kevin? He may not move on it but WTH.
I don't believe there were originals for 135 and 220.
I don't think so either so what should they all be?
Quote from: 4949shooter on April 22 2013 04:21:06 AM MDT
Quote from: Intercooler on April 22 2013 03:31:17 AM MDT
If this was MythBusters I guess we would deem this one "Plausible".
Those that would like some originals. Can you share what that is for a 135, 220, etc... and I will pass it on to Kevin? He may not move on it but WTH.
I don't believe there were originals for 135 and 220.
In order to determine that your would need to load ammo and have it tested via the CUP method to match the original CUP profile of 10mm Auto.
Expensive to do, so probably not worth it.
Quote from: LeMat on April 21 2013 08:34:42 PM MDT
Quote from: Bro KV on April 21 2013 08:29:23 PM MDT
The Wilson Rep is saying that early unlock/out of battery cannot cause case failure. Not saying that is what happened in this particular situation but it can happen. Am I wrong here?
I believe he's saying that a weak/weaker recoil spring does not cause an early unlock/out of battery situation.
This is correct. Certainly early/premature unlock will cause a case to let go. But in a 1911 that unlock is prevented as long as the bullet is in the barrel. I looked last night but couldn't find the high speed of a 1911 firing, but it shows that the action doesn't move more than about 1/16" of an inch before the bullet leaves the barrel.
It has been further explained by 1911tuner that this is becuase the projectile is still part of the system while in the barrel, and very little recoil impulse occurs before the bullet leaves the barrel. This coincides with the experiences I have had with squib rounds. There is noticeable recoil from a "light" round, but none from a squib, even though the differences in pressure may be small. As long as the bullet is in the barrel, it is dragging the barrel forward with almost as much energy as the pressure pushing on the breech. Since the two are locked, the breach moves backward very little, making unlock impossible.
So is this condition relevant to Glocks?
Glocks operate differently. Same principle, but evidence is certainly that extreme spreads drop and accuracy increases with heavier springs. Therefore the anecdotal evidence is that there is a difference in how the Glock operates.
Comparing the two action, my 1911 barrels swing down and unlock after some 1/8" rearward travel or so. The Glock begins unlocking and swing down immediately it seems.
I think a 170 JHP would be nice in the line up.Im even considering the Delta Load in my 1006 for carry.First Generation 170gn Norma 1400 fps 740fpe out of a 5 inch barrell then reduced to 1300 638fpe 2nd generation.Id say thats plenty to do the job and safe.
Regarless the operation differences between 1911s and Glocks, there's still something to be said about timing with how and when each setup begins to unlock, especially between the difference of a 30,000 PSI 10mm load, and another that ranges from 37,500 PSI (SAAMI maximum average pressure for the 10mm Auto) to 38,700 PSI (SAAMI probable lot mean for the 10mm Auto).
Then take into account that every now and then IMO a Underwood 10mm load easily surpasses 38,700 PSI.
To put things further into SAAMI perspective, SAAMI's maximum probable sample mean (the MAX PSI that should neither be tested beyond in any platform or have ammo developed beyond for retail sale, and means no ammo should actually EVER "average" this pressure level) for the 10mm Auto is 40,500 PSI. I believe every once in a while an Underwood 10mm load is bumping this level, hence issues.
The 1006 and Match have yet a different barrel lock-up still correct?
Yeah. All are modified derivative of the browning tilt lock, but different.
The 1006 and Witness guns follow a path profile very similar to the 1911 though. The Glock begins to disengage a bit sooner I think. I don't have them right here so I am going off of memory.
People are quick to assume that it is Underwood's ammo..better QC is still an option.
I still question the Star Line brass at the Underwood level of performance with a slight lack of case support! ??? It is a softer brass alloy and seems to stretch, flow and even tear at the upper limits of 10mm performance and pressure.
Does Star Line even test its product to some sort of pressure test standard?
Does Star Line brass test to the full pressure of true 10mm loads with a slight lack of case support? ???
Does the Brass as made by Star Line meet the SAAMI criteria of pressures for 10mm? ???
Does Star Line do destructive pressure testing? ???
Example of 205 10mm pressure MAP
The specific loads of the test have to fit the MAP set by SAAMI.
Here is a typical MAP as set by SAAMI
Nominal Mean Instrument @ 15 feet with =/-90 fps from test barrel
Maximum Average pressure MAP of 35700 psi
Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38700 psi
Maximum Portable Sample Mean MPSM of 40500 psi
The ammunition in test (10 rounds) would need to fit this established profile.
So now if Underwood's ammo fits this MAP, then the brass he uses needs to also comply as well...This would also mean it needs to conform to all chambers of commercial guns and viseversa.
If the brass is made to a lesser pressure tolerance, with respect to lack of chamber support, then it would seem to be out of spec.
Underwood has several options...
He used Star Line for years and now has brass marked with his company name, not sure if Star Line is his supplier since the change.
1.) Change the load pressure values to fit the brass pressure profile with respect to chamber support. He did this for Delta Elite guns...
2.) Change to a brass with better pressure specs. With attention to the area exposed with the lack of chamber support. Not likely...but it could be an alloy change, internal dimensional change or both.
In my opinion, the brass needs to remain unchanged at the 37,500 psi pressure level and maybe start to expand at the 40,500 psi and not SMILE or blow out. Of course different chambers will show different results...
None of my Underwood brass says Underwood :o
I posed the general question to starline via their feedback form.
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 22 2013 02:32:19 PM MDTOf course different chambers will show different results...
That said, no handgun brass cartridge case was ever designed to contain the SAAMI probable lot mean (38,700 PSI for 10mm Auto) pressure of any handgun cartridge I've ever heard about. And there's no question Starline Brass does that in any barrel with enough case support with zero issues whatsoever.
Quote from: REDLINE on April 21 2013 06:04:35 PM MDT
Thanks for posting the pics Bro KV!
It's hilarious to me that Wilson Combat would consider their barrels to have full chamber support. IMO they aren't even close let alone being seriously hogged out at the chamber mouth. Overall, I can't see that they offer any better support than a G20. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they don't make a quality gun overall, as I consider them second to none in the 1911 world. That said, their 10mm chambers offer nowhere near full case support!
And it's not just WC either. I have yet to see a 10mm barrel outside of a T/C Contender that has full chamber support. Some, like my Storm Lake barrel are very good, but anything less than 100% IS NOT full support. Kimber barrels are the closest to full support I've seen, and they aren't full support.
10mm TC and the revolvers have FULL chamber support. None of the auto's do. Some come closer (Kimber) than others (CDE), to compare extremes. WC falls somewhere in the middle. In any case, this is only an issue when exceeding ANSI/SAAMI specs. Case bulge, and even "smiles", are normal for some chambers, including Glock, and especially Colt DE's, at full pressure. This can be an acceptable level of full power and reliability, at the expense of unusable brass.. There's a reason why cases tend to shorten when fired in auto's, and lengthen in revolvers (and TC's). It's SOP. The TC and RBH will withstand repeated pressures well beyond 54K PSI. 64K PSI, theoretically (I haven't pushed them that far). Cases in my RBH will actually separate at the wall, just behind the bullet seat depth, at "Ruger Only" loads, if the cases are too short (but still within the acceptable range). These are fun to shoot, a few times (as much/more recoil, compared to "Ruger only" .45LC and .454C). Ultimately, "fully supported chamber" is a relative term, with auto's. The Kimber chambers I've seen are the "fullest", but still not up to "full".
In other words...... Yeah, I agree.
Intercooler,
Did Kevin seem to be interested in producing some slightly reduced or "original" loads. I would like to seem him release some of his Delta Elite loads or something similar with 180gr TMJs, Gold Dots, or XTPs or 200gr TMJs or XTPs. I'm not sure what bullets are actually available in 170gr, so a load that exactly duplicates the original Norma may not be that feasible or appealing.
Quote from: DAVIDF on April 24 2013 09:49:48 AM MDT
Intercooler,
Did Kevin seem to be interested in producing some slightly reduced or "original" loads. I would like to seem him release some of his Delta Elite loads or something similar with 180gr TMJs, Gold Dots, or XTPs or 200gr TMJs or XTPs. I'm not sure what bullets are actually available in 170gr, so a load that exactly duplicates the original Norma may not be that feasible or appealing.
I know handloading is not everyone's cup of tea, but the benefits of being able to handload exactly what you want, has its rewards!
Yes, I agree totally. I handload for my 44's & I don't approach max in those. I don't see a need to with the 44 anyways as I can get plenty of velocity for my needs without pushing the limits.
I am new to the 10mm & Glock 20. I will probably handload for it once components become easier to find. I won't be pushing the limits with my own loads for the 10mm either.
In the meantime I will be relying on Underwood for 10mm loads as well as some 9mm.
I have been learning a great deal about the 10mm from all of you on this forum & appreciate it very much.
Be sure to look in this section for the commercial ammo pull down information for what is being used and the as weighed amount and type powders. Very good information for what's being sold and tested by several guys... 8)
I definitely will. I have looked a bit, particularly at the Underwood pull downs. I will again in more detail before I actually purchase components.
I look at his and let me see if I got this right. 454 Casull was an overload,475 Linbaught was an overload,500SW was a big overload and at the beginning blew up guns left and right. Reason i know i watch at the factory as those frames came apart. So really the guns were builtto the ammo.That has not been done with the 10mm that i know of. Correct me if I am wrong. I am not talking about a 3500 custom made for a certain ammo. This is just a good question and if we keep the cabinet meeting together with no vacations and leave the lobbiest out of it I think we can fix it.
Quote from: RRMan03 on April 24 2013 04:36:24 PM MDTI look at his and let me see if I got this right. 454 Casull was an overload,475 Linbaught was an overload,500SW was a big overload and at the beginning blew up guns left and right. Reason i know i watch at the factory as those frames came apart. So really the guns were builtto the ammo. That has not been done with the 10mm that i know of. Correct me if I am wrong. I am not talking about a 3500 custom made for a certain ammo. This is just a good question and if we keep the cabinet meeting together with no vacations and leave the lobbiest out of it I think we can fix it.
SAAMI makes Proof Loads available to all gun manufacturers that care, and therefore all gun manufacturers have the option of building their firearms around them. SAAMI's proof cartridge pressures for 10mm =
Minimum Average = 50,500 PSI
Maximum Average = 54,000 PSIMaximum Extreme Variation = 9800 PSI
I wish I could have gotten a sample of those loads to dissect and inspect for more than normal powder charges or cutting away the brass to look for issues.
Once the unlock/barrel tilt occurs the cartridge is starting to move back as well, the pressures although should be dropping from peak pressure are still quite high, brass has be heated to extreme temps so these things are adding to the situation.
As the brass starts to shearing and being pulled out of the chamber it has even less support, hence the case doesn't fit when placed back in the chamber to fully headspace flush with the barrel hood.
??? The question still exist did the brass have issues that are not noticeable to the users, or ammo makers? ???
I never heard back from him. I just sent the suggested ones posted the other day with my thoughts and he can do as he wants with what was forwarded. To keep my level of sanity tolerable ;D my chapter concerning Underwood is closed for good. I haven't had any issues with anything made from start until turning the last page and don't plan on remotely getting involved in issues if/when they surface. My only driver was to try to figure out what were the issues that led up to problems, but will let more knowledgeable people theorize.