Hello guys,
I´m from Germany and want a 10mm pistol as a back-up gun for hunting.
10mm Autos are very rare over here and so the market is small for them.
For carrying it, weight is a thing (not the only one, but it counts) and so I thought I want a polymer-gun.
All I can get is:
- Glock 20 Gen 4
- Glock 40 Gen 4
- Glock 40 Gen 4 M.O.S.
- XD-M 10mm 4.5" (no OR or Elite, actually the importer says he has only 2 of them left, all others are 9mm)
- EAA / Tanfo Witness P Match Pro (not sure yet, the importer says 50:50
Well, Glock would be the easiest for me to get, but please don´t hate me, I had two Glocks and they were ok, but I never became a fan.
I have medium hands and the Glocks are my emergency nails.
Getting older I begin to shoot lately with red dots and would love to have the option.
But only the Glock 40 would give me that and in my opinion (call me wrong) it is just to big to carry it as a back-up.
Well, comparing those pistols, which one would you take as a hunting back-up gun?
:-\
Witness P-Match Pro weighs the same as the Glock for within 8 grams according to the websites. So, if the Glock 40 is too big, same for the witness.
My EDC is a Glock 20 Gen 3 SF. I am not a huge glock fan-boi, but my carry gun is my "bet my life on it" gun and the Glock has proved the most reliable and consistent. I have other guns in 9mm that are just as rock solid (FN High Power, Arex Zero 1, Jericho 941F and FS to name a few).
My other 10mm's (Ruger SR1911, Para P16-10mm, RIA FS HC, Witness, Witness Match) both have more hiccup's and weigh significantly more.
The Witness guns come close in reliability, but it seems to be luck of the draw. If I could easily get a different gun I might be inclined to take a chance on the Witness P-Match Pro. In fact, here in the US if I were in the market today, I would almost certainly get that gun. But here in the US if I decided it didn't fit the requirements I could easily grab a Glock or and XD-M.
The XD-M may be a great option. I have an XD9 and it is a solid gun all around. Reports are similarly good for 10mm and so it may be a great non-Glock option.
If I had to bet on a one and done...Glock 20.
Well, the Glock 40 being "big" it´s not the weight what I meant, this thing is just huuuuge.
How or where will you carry it?
It is the only one of those I can get, which has a OR-option, but I just don´t see me carrying it.
Some tritium nightsights or something like it will do the trick too in the beginning I guess.
(Am absolutely new to the red-dot-on-pistols-thingy, have mounted my first red dot on a Walther and am still not sure if I like it. Will have to train more with it I guess, but like I said, I´m not getting younger, so ...)
Otherwise I would have getting the slide milled.
So you say, the Glock is the most reliable of it, which makes me wonder, if there are owners of the XDM oder the EAA which can report about the reliability of there guns.
I like the look of the EAA.
I have two CZs and had one Tanfo, which I like quite a bit.
And I´m not sure, if the high bore axis of the XDM makes it a bit snappy.
I would have to order the EAA and reserve the XDM, which means I would have to buy them, even without being able to handle them before.
So my best bet is, that you guys can help me with your experience.
There are many different offering from EAA / Tanfo that are chambered for 10mm and the Stock models are great as well. Good luck with you're acquisition
I own a Glock 40 and previously owned a Glock 20. I've owned 4 XDMs and 1 XD chambered in 9mm and 45. I like the springfield platform but have no experience with it in 10mm.
My Glock 40 has an adjustable rear sight and fiber optic front sight both from Dawson Precision. I carry it in a leather slide holster which also fits my STI Perfect 10 and both my Dan Wesson 10nms. I also have a nylon chest holster which can carry those pistols plus my S&W 629 44 magnum. I prefer the longer sight radius of the Glock 40 to the Glock 20.
The Glock 40 with red dot would require a different holster to work with the red dot. A custom holster maker could make you something to fit. My 10mms are carried primarily defensively for bears. So, I don't use a red dot as my 56 year old eyes can still see well enough to work with iron sights and I am confident with them.
Both the Glock and XDM triggers can be improved by installing Zev Tech and Powder River Precision triggers if you are unhappy with the stock triggers. Hope this helps.
Quote from: sep on May 11 2021 05:25:39 AM MDT
Hope this helps.
Thank you, this helps a lot, every info about this pistols does so for me.
I´m 53 in 2 weeks, wearing glasses since 10 years and now have problems far and near.
I still can see the irons pretty good, but I realize it is getting worse every year.
Shooting with red dots is a whole new story and I try slowly to get used to it.
May I ask you how big your hands are, and if you´ve ever handled a SF-version?
I have a 10mm XDm and like it. I put a Vortex Venom red dot on it for a while but recently took it off and installed adjustable fiber optic sights. the red dot was great in low light but bad in my South Fla. sunlight. the worst problem was unlike a red dot on a rifle where it naturally lines up when the rifle is shouldered, the dot sight mount goes into the rear sight dove tail cut on the slide. with no rear sight, I had to search for the dot by moving the muzzle around. I couldn't get a shot at a hog that was running by me because of it. >:( I would not use it for self defense or dangerous game.
I also have a Witness Steel that I like and is a great shooter but is no where near as reliable as the XDm. the only problem I've had with the XDm was with what I thought were light primer strikes but were caused by a batch of reloads with some high primers. :-[ the Witness has about every upgrade instaalled and still isn't as reliable as the XDm. I have heard of other people's Witness pistols running flawless. not mine. (this is my second one) get the XDm!
I have both the XDM and G29 (little sister to the 20). I had a 20 at one time. Traded it for the 29. I like them both. I like the feel of the grip of the XDM better. I shoot both about the same. I would think a chest rig of some sort would be best for hunting.
blaster, it sucks that you had bad luck with the red dot. I am assuming you used a plate the slid into the dovetail. I have a red dot using a mounting plate on the dove tail of my 29 and I have no issues finding the dot and not having a rear sight. With that being said, when I was cop I carried a Glock 19 MOS with Vortex Venom. I shot probably around 700 rounds before qualifying with it and then shot it monthly. That could get pretty spendy doing that with 10mm. With my G19 I added supressor height sights. If you use a mounting plate in place of the rear sight, you might as well take the front sight off because it does no good. It does not co witness one bit. I shoot my G19 and 29 at 12" plates @100 yards and sometimes I even hit it.
But not to stray too far off topic. I would day of the choice and you may be leaning towards adding a red dot I would go to the Glock 40 MOS. If it does not come with supressor height sights, those are a must. On my G19 the red dot sit right on top of the front sight. USing a red dot sight takes some time before you develope the muscle memory and when you point the gun the dot is there. I left the police department in October and put my G19 in the safe after my last shift. Last week I took it to the range and it took no time to find that dot. But also If you go with the red dot, also shoot with the iron sight from time to time, just so you know where it shoots if the red dot sight fails you.
Great point about continuing to practice with the irons, as they do fail occasionally
Ken
And also getting used to the red dot.
I´m a IPSC shooter and RO, and when I see someone rotating his gun in front of his face after the "BEEP!", I know exactly that he is not used to his red dot.
That´s what I mean, when I say I have to get used to it.
Pull the gun, present it to the target and the dot has to be there.
That takes some training.
Sage Dynamics has a great video about that learning process on youtube.
But BTT:
I´m still hoping someone who has a EAA P Match Pro (polymer pistol with DA/SA) will join this party.
I´d really love to hear how durable and reliable it is.
I´m used to the CZ plattform and love it (had and still have a couple of them).
CZ offers no 10 over here, so the Tanfo would be my first choice I guess.
But No. 1 is reliability and durability as a hunting back-up gun, so if someone could bring in infos/experience about that it would be a blast.
:)
I can only give my experience on opinion on the Glock 40.
The Glock 40 is a great woods and hunting pistol for me. I carry it in a Blackhawk G20 holster with no problem. But because its a Glock with no manual safety that's why its just a woods gun and hunting pistol for me. But it cut out the need to carry a carbine in the wilderhood for me.
As for sighting systems I was going to get thanks to the MOS. I practiced with the OEM iron sights so much I got use to them and took down deer and other things that needed downing with just the basic irons. But I still intend to up grade the gritty trigger on mine.
I don't think there is a Non-MOS Glock 40. But then you don't need to put an MOS on if you don't want one.
As I stated above, I want it as a backup gun, which means, I will carry a rifle as my main gun anyways.
So a Glock 40 is to much / to bulky to carry it also in my opinion.
But new infos and thoughts.
I´m German and have opened such a thread in an Austrian forum, you know, where the Glocks all come from.
There is a Austrian dealer / Doubleaction from Vienna, who said you can´t ride a Glock 20 or 21 with full house loads in general.
Those two pistols, with the heavy slides, will cause damages with high pressure rounds after a while.
He says (I try to translate): "The slide gets bend after a while, and then the loading indicator gets thrown out every second or third shot."
Without giving any opinion to that, I´m just reporting what he said.
FUDD in my experience. Even with the stock barrel and above max handloads I have had zero issue with my Glock. I get bigger smiles in my Para P16/10mm.
I can't imagine a strong enough overload to bend a Glock 20 slide. And, the Glock large frame was designed for the 10mm and then scaled back for the Glock 21 in 45 ACP.
Quote from: Jayjay1 on May 15 2021 02:54:23 AM MDT
As I stated above, I want it as a backup gun, which means, I will carry a rifle as my main gun anyways.
So a Glock 40 is to much / to bulky to carry it also in my opinion.
But new infos and thoughts.
I´m German and have opened such a thread in an Austrian forum, you know, where the Glocks all come from.
There is a Austrian dealer / Doubleaction from Vienna, who said you can´t ride a Glock 20 or 21 with full house loads in general.
Those two pistols, with the heavy slides, will cause damages with high pressure rounds after a while.
He says (I try to translate): "The slide gets bend after a while, and then the loading indicator gets thrown out every second or third shot."
Without giving any opinion to that, I´m just reporting what he said.
Well get what fits your hand for a 10mm. The G-40 with the smallest back strap fits mine. Some older G20s I had to pas on as they didn't fit my hand well. I got my G-40 as it fit my need for high capacity, and 6" barrel that I could find at a good price. I wanted a RIA ultra 10mm but the 6" barrel version at the time was not any where. For me my G40 is my back up gun when I'm carrying the bolt actions especially, the 15 rounds are better than 6 rounds from my 357wheel gun when I needed them. (More than 6 four legged threats at that time.)
The XDM 10mm has good reviews, the EEA 10mm types seems to be liked well by people here. The important part for a back up gun is fitting in your hand that you you can handle the best for you. Or can work for your needs. As these are 2 other ones that are suggested.
As for a Glock Slide twisting from full 10mm power loads is a new one I never heard of. I'm sure the REAL EXPERTS here can tell us about that. Here you can find a lot of information on things like that just by asking.
I am 56 and have had 3500 plus rounds through my Gen 3 Glock 20 and my Gen 4 Glock 20 each. If weight is your consideration I would suggest the Glock 20.
I have a Glock 40 as well. It shoots great, especially with my older hands and wrists. But it's heavier and more unwieldy to carry.
So for a backup gun to your hunting weapon....G20 all the way. She isn't pretty, but she works.
Quote from: Jayjay1 on May 15 2021 02:54:23 AM MDT
There is a Austrian dealer / Doubleaction from Vienna, who said you can´t ride a Glock 20 or 21 with full house loads in general.
Those two pistols, with the heavy slides, will cause damages with high pressure rounds after a while.
He says (I try to translate): "The slide gets bend after a while, and then the loading indicator gets thrown out every second or third shot."
With all due respect to Mr. Doubleaction; he is quite mistaken and his advice in this case is incorrect. I'm anything but a Glock fanboy as my Glock is my least favorite 10mm. However, I do carry a 10mm as a backup handgun when hunting and the ONLY one I use in that capacity is the Glock 20. Now it's the Gen 3SF. It's proven it's worth in those situations a number of times over the years (very successfully). In that role I only use full house 10mm ammo (most of the time in training and exclusively when hunting and as a back up). It's never, every had a problem with the full house loads (probably around 1,000 of them so far) and I have in the past an will in the future trust my life to it in these very situations. To me it's simply a tool, and it's reasonable weight, reliability and fact that it's not a finely crafted work of art give me comfort when hunting in rough environments where it's likely to get a good bit of abuse.
Again, this is just my choice for the best tool for the same job you described. If I was looking for the sweetest shooter, a work of art, race gun or the most accurate pistol I could get my hands on, I'd go a very different way.
Based on the application and choices you listed; I'd advise you to go with either the Glock or XD.... Pick the one that fits your hand and your most comfortable with and get to hunting.
Good luck!
Are you restricted in your method of carry while hunting? By that I mean can you use any holster or are there restrictions on what holsters can be used?
If not there are many options available that make a larger gun easy to carry. I personally am like you and need a red dot style sight on my handguns due to poor up close eyesight.
I carry a Glock 20 long slide that I assembled myself long before the Glock 40 was available. I carry it in a drop leg holster although I have been considering switching to a cross draw chest rig such as a Gunfighters Inc Keani model. The 10mm benefits well from the longer barrel of the G40.
I'm also not sure what restrictions exist on importing holster from the US.
EDIT: Shame on that guy for telling you those lies about the 10mm Glock. I've been shooting/carrying a 10mm Glock variant for over 20 years with tens of thousands of full power + loads with absolutely no ill effects whatsoever. Rest assured the Glock is MORE than capable of handling full power 10mm loads and then some.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Absolutely, my G20 has never had an issue with large amounts of Underwood's hottest
Nope, my G20 and G29 have never had issues with Underwood either.
Quote from: Jayjay1 on May 13 2021 01:28:03 AM MDT
And also getting used to the red dot.
I´m a IPSC shooter and RO, and when I see someone rotating his gun in front of his face after the "BEEP!", I know exactly that he is not used to his red dot.
That´s what I mean, when I say I have to get used to it.
Pull the gun, present it to the target and the dot has to be there.
That takes some training.
Sage Dynamics has a great video about that learning process on youtube.
But BTT:
I´m still hoping someone who has a EAA P Match Pro (polymer pistol with DA/SA) will join this party.
I´d really love to hear how durable and reliable it is.
I´m used to the CZ plattform and love it (had and still have a couple of them).
CZ offers no 10 over here, so the Tanfo would be my first choice I guess.
But No. 1 is reliability and durability as a hunting back-up gun, so if someone could bring in infos/experience about that it would be a blast.
:)
I'm a long time Tanfoglio user but I've always preferred steel to their (or anyone's) polymer. Durability of their 10's? I've read of a few with slide cracks, but my fairly high mileage Witness (EAA importer of Tanfoglio in the U.S) 10 compact has not had any issues.
Of all the 10's I've owned and shot, to me the most elegant, ergonomically designed 10mm made is the Tanfoglio hunter, nothing else comes close. I'd take it afield over a rifle any day and save the weight burden of two guns unless I'd be in big bear country, then I'd take a big bore revolver or 7 mag bolt rifle :-)
I haven't read of the weight differences between the hunter with the weight relieved slide and uncut slide versions but I suspect the weight relieved slide model will be a couple of ounces lighter.
Regarding dot sights, I read a tip on another forum about dot training, putting a piece of black tape over the front lens is a good training tool to learn to use the red dot.
I have a G20 (Gen 3 I guess), an EAA Witness Hunter (6") and and XDM in the 5" size. I shoot only handloads so my experiences may be due as much to handloads not being appropriate for the gun as anything. The G20 is by far my least favorite, and in fact I'll likely give it away to the first person I meet who says they 'like it'. The EAA Witness has been far more reliable, but this is an all-steel gun that's nothing like what you're after--but as a brand (Tanfoglio of course), if the quality, fit and finish is representative of their other products, I wouldn't hesitate to get a polymer model if I needed another one.
The XDM, so far, is my number one choice for what I consider a 'full size'. It's by no means an ideal fit, but the performance has been flawless so far (but, not even 1,000 rds thru it, so a bit early to go all crazy with enthusiasm).
I think if I lived where Glocks were plentiful and the dominant thing available, I'd likely go that way. I've never had any issue with my G29, which has been my primary carry for many years. The G20 and I will simply never get along, but your experience could be totally different--I think the experience of most shooters is far more positive. For me, the G20 isn't even remotely carryable--as a hunting backup or for any other purpose. BUT, consider that, if you can find a comfortable and accessible way to carry it, a full-size package is probably something you can more reliably get a hold of and present on target than a little pop gun.
Of course, you asked "of these options" and someone always suggests something that isn't listed as an option--in that tradition, let me just throw "357 revolver" out there. There, I've done it.
Nice writeup Bongo Boy, Thanks!