Why are so many people scared of full power 10mm ammo. Is it the fact that most full power ammo is made by small manafactures? Or is it that everybody is so used to the lower power big factory loads that when shooting a full power 10 the first thought is that was to strong its going to blow my gun up. Having shot 90% full power to nuclear power loads in a Glock 20 with all factory parts I have never had nothing except the smile every now and then. I do not shoot reloads. Having said that the few low powr loads I have shot caused more problems than the full power loads.My plastic guns may blow up someday with me holding on but if I wanted a 40 I would have bought one.
It's just the Delta and Glock guys 8)
:D
Well it depends on two things...What you consider full ballistic 10mm loads to be and Physics, you know that law, that if you break it, it will break something! ;D
I am a Glock guy and would rather have my plastic Glock blow up on me than an all steel anything.At least the plastic will disapated some of the blast where steel just speeds it up.I just do not see anybody producing ammo that when fired from a good gun of todays manafacture would explode it. Way too much liability on that front. Good way to close your business I guess.LOL
As we have seen here though stuff happens and all don't get loaded right even if they try. I would send one of the Elite Ammo owners "extra specials" down my Hunter as a try just to see "what fer". ;D
Some of the other models like the plastic guns I would feel like this though
(http://gameinformer.com/resized-image.ashx/__size/550x0/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.36.50.71.Attached+Files/8400.clint_2D00_lucky.jpg)
I prefere to stick as close to Norma Specs as possible.It gets the job done.Maybe Kev can make a load and call it "The Original 10mm Load".170 at 1300fps.
Not me I guess. I think it's great to have an unbending top dog giving us just that and all the others can back-fill with levels everyone wants. Double Tap is loaded close to Norma I would guess :o
God told man to design the 10mm to Norma levels.
When you mess with God's plan for the 10mm, guns can go Kaboom. Pushing the limit, combined with sloppy or diminishing quality control leads to bad things happening. Some of these manufacturers are deceased so I won't name them out of decency. And there have been some issues with .357 ammo loaded by other manufacturers, as has been discussed here in the past. Whether it is poor quality control, or the guy loading the ammo that day not getting a good night's sleep, being sick, arguing with his wife, or whatever, when we push beyond the limits the ammo was designed for there is a small margin for error.
Give me 200 grains at 1200, or 170 at 1300 to 1350. This IS considered full power 10mm ammo. Anything above that is NUCLEAR level, and must have guns designed for it (proper chamber and springs).
That's my take on it.
I agree 4949.
And exactly why it is so great. You can go up and down the list by weight and get what you feel comfortable in your firearm and performance. Initially I thought maybe Kevin should have backed down to appease everyone but making the Delta-Lite load was the Olive Branch for that. Actually a simple call to him I'm sure he will load it how you want but for everything else their is Double Tap and Buffalo Bore ;D
I agree this is part of what makes the 10mm the greatest semi auto cartridge out there.
However, my point is considering the OP's original post in this thread, where he asks why everyone is afraid of FULL POWER 10mm. My response was geared as a partial answer to his question, in that many are not afraid of full power ten loads, they are skeptical of manufacturers who may be pushing the limit too much, thereby potentially creating an unsafe condition in some stock guns, or as I mentioned above due to variances in manufacture.
There is a big difference in being afraid of a full power load and being skeptical of a load that may be loaded to potentially unsafe levels.
You weren't around on Glocktalk when one member posted a KB with his Glock 29 and SW ammo. The owner of SW ended up backing off the 200 grain XTP load to 1195 FPS so they could safely be fired in Glock 29 pistols (a G29 specific load). If you are interested, I can try to find the thread for you when I have some time.
Let's face it....mistakes do happen.
Not sure what recoil spring system that was being used in the G-29 that had a case blow with the SwampFox ammo back then.
Many things were happening back then, Mike of Swamp Fox was pushing his load at 10.0 grains of LongShot that yielded 1325 fps from the G-20's. He mentioned about having extra power recoil spring systems to compensate for the higher impulse ammo. He also mentioned about Aftermarket barrels with better chamber support. Then for those that had the 6" barrels, he needed to tame that load as well and it would be equal to the 1325 fps, because of the pressure. Too many variables to keep straight with the amount of orders...
The main thing is people need to understand their guns and the ammo they select to use, then observe the fired casings to gather the data of how things are working with their setups. If they see "SMILES" they need to adjust either the ammo, use a different barrel or change lockup timing. Some guns may require more changes that others, because not all of them are alike.
The best understanding is chamber support or the lack of it! The strength of the ammo in relation to its impulse as acted upon the recoil system in use is referred to as tuning the slide. Different guns work differently that others and spring changes alone may not fix the situation. Some of the aftermarket barrels are not the same as previous models, geometry can be different, chamber support differences and also the free bore area can all affect a given situation! ???
Honestly only one (I think would fit in that category) if I would have to guess from people here. That would be Underwood which in a decent firearm gives zero issues. The other 99% can be ran in anything without issue from the ammo side of things. Upgrade your firearm IMO ;D
Quote from: RRMan03 on April 05 2013 11:40:50 PM MDT
I am a Glock guy and would rather have my plastic Glock blow up on me than an all steel anything.At least the plastic will disapated some of the blast where steel just speeds it up.I just do not see anybody producing ammo that when fired from a good gun of todays manafacture would explode it. Way too much liability on that front. Good way to close your business I guess.LOL
How about just buying a gun where you don't even worry about the possibility of it even failing? I have never heard a Dan Wesson or a Fusion Firearms going "kaboom". On the other hand, all the Glock "kaboom" stories all seem to have a common cause, shooting a lot of cast lead bullets from their polygonal rifled OEM barrels.
Quote from: gandog56 on April 06 2013 07:28:24 PM MDT
How about just buying a gun where you don't even worry about the possibility of it even failing? I have never heard a Dan Wesson or a Fusion Firearms going "kaboom". On the other hand, all the Glock "kaboom" stories all seem to have a common cause, shooting a lot of cast lead bullets from their polygonal rifled OEM barrels.
There are many people who actually shoot cast bullets only from their Glock factory barrels without issue, most that do are handloaders and understand that bullet size and lube quality make that possible safely. Heck my G-30 cast bullets are all I shoot for target work. I have blasted many cast bullets thru my G-29 factory barrel from time to time with various weights and styles.
Most of the Glock Kaboom's are actually case blow outs caused by early unlock, that increases the unsupported case with hot loads or from bullet set back issues that jack up the pressures again with hot loads. Yes there are rare cases where the ammo is a blatant problem such as drastically overloaded condition. Thinks that can cause that are double charge, wrong powder being used, powder bridging and even having multiple projectiles jammed in the case.
Other things that can cause catastrophic failure is a squib bullet or foreign object inside the barrel.
You have to keep in mind that Glock sales dwarf companies like Dan Wesson or Fusions. I would not be surprised to find that more Glocks are sold in an hour than Fusions in a year. Even if catastrophic failure rates are similar, you will therefore hear orders of magnitudes more examples of Glock failures.
I have a Glock. It was my most recent purchase, and is not my favorite gun by far. It is easy for me to shoot well, and is lightweight and reliable. Like The_Shadow, I shoot mostly hardcast lead from mine, with no issues ever.
Like I said, all I have to do is hold a Glock and I know I'm not getting one. I don't give a hoot how many Zillion are sold. I don't like the feel, I'm not getting it.
Quote from: RRMan03 on April 05 2013 06:28:05 PM MDTWhy are so many people scared of full power 10mm ammo.
I don't think most are. I think it's a question of trusting a manufaturer(s) when they are already pushing SAAMI limits, on top of evidence showing they probably have because of poor quality control. Give me 37,500 PSI all day long if QC is up to spec.
I'm not scared of it, since I think both my 1911 type 10mm's will do them no problem. My problem is a "full power" load is NEVER the most accurate load. At least I have never come across a reloading recipe for a 10mm that was. The most accurate ones happen more towards the middle ranges.
I can NOT probably do a target like this with a full power load.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/dwgroup.jpg)
I mean I hate Glocks, but I think even THEY will stand up to a full power load. But I believe they will leave awful big smilies in the spent cases! Which doesn't matter if you don't reload them.
My Para smiles cases worse than my G29 with a stock barrel. It is all about the shape of the chamber.
Case heads are larger out of the G29 though. Overall it is bigger, but the Para barrel has a section that is hogged out and leaves more case head unsupported. In another 20,000 rounds or so I will replace that barrel and the issue should go away.
My Gen 4 Glock 20 with stock barrel & springs, leaves no smiles on fired Underwood ammo. I measured the fired Starline brass from Underwood 180gr TMJ loads & FC brass from Federal American Eagle 180gr FMJ. Average was the same for both at .433" at .125 inches above the extractor groove.
Based on a very limited testing of only Federal American Eagle & Underwood, the Underwood was much more accurate. Probably the most accurate of anything I've fired out of my 3 Glocks. However, the 20 seems to be more accurate than my 17 & 26.
In general I definitely agree that max loads are not usually the most accurate loads. But there are times I would rather have an extra 100 fps than an extra 1" smaller group. And vice-versa.
More than either max power or max velocity I want max reliability in carry ammo. Neither power nor accuracy do me much good when what I really need is a bang instead of a click.
Agree Sql. That click is no good for carry ammo. I carry a high power load but it does go off and I shoot it well. Most of any defensive shooting accuracy is not much of an issue. Be fast and correct is though.And having reliable equipment.
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 09 2013 10:25:38 AM MDT
In general I definitely agree that max loads are not usually the most accurate loads. But there are times I would rather have an extra 100 fps than an extra 1" smaller group. And vice-versa.
More than either max power or max velocity I want max reliability in carry ammo. Neither power nor accuracy do me much good when what I really need is a bang instead of a click.
This, exactly.
The two loudest noises you'll ever hear while shooting: "A bang that should have gone click, and a click that should have gone bang".
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 09 2013 10:25:38 AM MDT
In general I definitely agree that max loads are not usually the most accurate loads. But there are times I would rather have an extra 100 fps than an extra 1" smaller group. And vice-versa.
More than either max power or max velocity I want max reliability in carry ammo. Neither power nor accuracy do me much good when what I really need is a bang instead of a click.
Nope, I can't think of anything more than correct placement. 1" can be the difference between a kill shot or not. 100 fps more?.....EH!
But that's me.
That sounds like it makes sense on the surface but in reality, any weapon and ammo combination will yield enough accuracy to fight effectively. If you are shooting 2" groups, you need to shoot faster. Now I know everybody else here except me is a marinerecondeltasealsniper and you're just THAT good, right? Well, if you're shooting 2" groups, you need to speed up. It's called balance of speed and accuracy. You need to shoot as fast as possible while still getting hits to the thoracic cavity. Basically, you're looking to keep those shots inside an 8"-10" circle. In fact, rounds that impact right next to each other may have LESS effect because they are damaging some of the same tissue. One instructor that I trained with did a portion of our training with a sort of "negative target," if you will. Once it was established that we all had the basics down and could keep our rounds on the target (or the backer at the very least), he cut 8" holes from each target and we spent some time shooting *through* the holes. That kept us from worrying about where the holes were. If we got a hit on the paper, we slowed down. If not, we sped up until we got a hit on the paper.
This ^^^
Raggedyman is quoting the exact doctrine I have always been taught. And man, as a marinerecondeltasealsniper it is a real challenge to shoot so fast I can't keep them in a 2" group. Need faster lock time on the gun. :P
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 07 2013 10:52:03 AM MDT
You have to keep in mind that Glock sales dwarf companies like Dan Wesson or Fusions. I would not be surprised to find that more Glocks are sold in an hour than Fusions in a year. Even if catastrophic failure rates are similar, you will therefore hear orders of magnitudes more examples of Glock failures.
I have a Glock. It was my most recent purchase, and is not my favorite gun by far. It is easy for me to shoot well, and is lightweight and reliable. Like The_Shadow, I shoot mostly hardcast lead from mine, with no issues ever.
That only explains why you should HEAR about more Glocks going kaboom. It doesn't explain why I have NEVER heard of a Fusion or Dan Wesson blowing up!
Quote from: gandog56 on April 10 2013 12:55:11 PM MDT
That only explains why you should HEAR about more Glocks going kaboom. It doesn't explain why I have NEVER heard of a Fusion or Dan Wesson blowing up!
Here you go:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/firearms/33068-kaboom-1911-a.html (http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/firearms/33068-kaboom-1911-a.html)
Now you have heard of a Dan Wesson kaboom.
Hmmmm, funny they say it was an unsupported portion of the case blew out. My Dan Wesson Razorback pretty much has full support. Earlier version? My Fusion supposedly also has a fully supported ramped barrel. I mean all the people seem to be arguing it COULDN'T bee an unsupported case causing the problem.
They will all blow giving the right circumstances. No such thing as KaBoom proof.I have been lucky as I have probably shoot a million rounds and never had a KaBooom. Just lucky I guess.
I've had ONE Kaboom, and of course it's pretty much my fault. Shooting my SA 1911A1 GI I must have put a double charged reload in. Blew the magazine out the magwell and trashed it, and bulged the barrel. No damage to me except my nerves!
Turned out to be a blessing in disguise, almost. The magazine was a cheapo $7 gun show mag that wouldn't lock the gun back when it was empty, anyways. Put in a new Wilson Combat match grade barrel with a fitted bushing. My groups sizes halved!
Early DW had the unsupported Delta style barrel.
Some of the KaBooms (Case Blow outs mostly) can be from weak recoil springs or poor lockup issues some related to the lack of preload to maintain positive lockup! Out of battery conditions may also play a role in the case being blown out.